An orchestra librarian's open letter

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coqui
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Re: An orchestra librarian's open letter

Post by coqui »

aslsp-fl wrote:A publisher earns its money not only from selling scores - this now is a minor business - but from performance fees and recording deals.
Holy words.

Until 2004 I ran a small publishing house, and I could quote each of your words: if I had to rely on scores for my daily bread, I would have starved.

How strange it could seem, a publisher main job is to promote a living author having his/her work performed wherever possible and with the largest audience possible, not just sell one copy of the score here and there.

Thank you for your nice post: in the digital era, IMSLP is a "real" public library under any aspect, and it should be permitted to work like any other public library, also lending copyrighted material like any other library in the world.
Last edited by coqui on Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.
WJM
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Re: An orchestra librarian's open letter

Post by WJM »

aslsp-fl wrote:In my opinion IMSLP should have kept a stricter control, and probably sticking to the EU term of copyright (life+70) would have been a sensible thing to do.
It would absolutely NOT have been a "sensible thing to do."

Canada, like Germany, or Mexico, Guatemala, or Côte-d'Ivoire, or Colombia, is a sovereign country.

Let's play along, and accept your argument that a Canadian organization, dishing out files from a Canadian server, should abide by the laws of a foreign country.

Why should this principle be restricted to Canada?

This must also mean that in the US, nothing can be treated as public domain under the pre-1923 rule. Project Gutenberg would have to remove all of its files which are PD under US law, but still copyrighted in the life+50, life+60, or life+70 countries.

It would also mean that people in German or other EU countries could no longer rely on the life+70 rule. They would have to honour and respect the life+75 term in Guatemala and several other countries.

Except that they couldn't. They would have to respect the life+80 law of Colombia, and the life+80 rule which applies to certain works under Spanish law.

Except that they couldn't do that, either, because Côte-d'Ivoire has a life+99 rule, and if Canada has to respect Germany's law, then Germany has to respect Côte-d'Ivoire's.

Except that Mexico just recently, idiotically, extended their term to life+100.

Where does it end?

And why does it only work in one direction? If Germany can insist that German law applies in Canada for the purpose of calculating how much copyright there is, then surely someone in Germany, or Canada, or anywhere else, can rely on Ethiopian or Afghani law for calculating how little there is: two countries which lack copyright laws and hence copyright terms.

So, no, asking citizens of one country to live their lives by the laws of another is NOT a sensible thing to do.

It is eminently non-sensible.
Yagan Kiely
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Post by Yagan Kiely »

Should every country have a required draft for every citizen like Israel, or have harsh laws/rules/whatever regarding woman like in some Arabic nations? No, of course not.

We can't be governed by Europe.
Vivaldi
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Post by Vivaldi »

The only sensible solution to all this mess is of course to make a uniform copyright law which is equal and is enforcable in every country around the world. Sadly, I doubt this will ever happen.
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Post by Vivaldi »

Buxtehude's assertion about Dover is correct. However, Dover only reprinted works published by UE which are clearly public domain, for example the first editions of Mahler's 1st symphony which was published by UE early in the 20th century. Over the years, the 1st symphony was revised and updated by UE, the more recent version published in the 1960s was uploaded in IMSLP. Clearly, Dover did not reprint the 1960s revised version as they did not know the exact status of its copyright, in short, they played safe.
Regarding the sale of Dover's scores to countries outside the US, although Dover clearly states that some scores are restricted only to the US (eg. Stravinsky's ballet scores), that doesn't stop people in the EU or Asia from purchasing them online via Amazon.com or SheetMusicPlus.com.
coqui
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Re: An orchestra librarian's open letter

Post by coqui »

WJM wrote:Except that Mexico just recently, idiotically, extended their term to life+100.
Too little.

Let's extend it worlwide to life +1000.

We must be absolutely sure to keep culture well far from the society.

Culture is dangerous, it's piracy, it's a crime, it's the original sin, it's COMMUNISM!

:lol:
Blouis79
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Post by Blouis79 »

Vivaldi wrote:The only sensible solution to all this mess is of course to make a uniform copyright law which is equal and is enforcable in every country around the world. Sadly, I doubt this will ever happen.
I think a prominent case like this could result in uniform copyright law. All it would take is UE on the one hand to be bull-headed and go to court and the world of IMSLP supporters on the other hand to defend. UEs case seems rather weak and IMSLPs motives and behaviour seem generally well-principled. A court would likely recommend a sensible action to the international community towards uniform copyright laws.
Vivaldi
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Post by Vivaldi »

This is entirely possible. However, I still think it will be very hard to implement this worldwide. Each country would be intent to protect its own sovereignity that they will hardly accept any worldwide uniform laws unless it is somehow beneficial to them. That is the way I see it I do not think they will change anytime soon. Very unfortunate and regrettable.
Richard Black
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Post by Richard Black »

Regarding the sale of Dover's scores to countries outside the US, although Dover clearly states that some scores are restricted only to the US (eg. Stravinsky's ballet scores), that doesn't stop people in the EU or Asia from purchasing them online via Amazon.com or SheetMusicPlus.com.
True, but it's still technically illegal. Just because the people who process orders at Amazon and SMP don't know (or don't care) about copyright law doesn't mean they're acting within it.
Vivaldi
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Post by Vivaldi »

Okay, but I don't see or at least never heard of Dover or the original publishers pressing charges against Amazon.com or SheetMusicPlus or anyone of its employers.
Blouis79
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Post by Blouis79 »

As someone who has tried to buy things from outside US that are restricted to the US market, I can say that Amazon does certainly enforce country restrictions. So that would explain why it isn't being sued.
jhellingman
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Post by jhellingman »

Blouis79 wrote:As someone who has tried to buy things from outside US that are restricted to the US market, I can say that Amazon does certainly enforce country restrictions. So that would explain why it isn't being sued.
These restrictions are typically based on contracts Amazon has with suppliers. You could try to order them via a post box forwarding company (which sometimes work), but then such purchases may be blocked based on the location of your credit card. I don't see much change in trying to sue them for this. On the other hand, I never had trouble ordering region 1 DVDs (North America) from them in the Netherlands, and importing these for private use is perfectly legal.

Within the EU, Apple is under investigation for blocking customers from other EU countries on their EU based website, as such actions are illegal under EU law. Since the EU now covers 3 DVD regions, I think the DVD region system as it is today may be in legal trouble as well, once somebody thinks of pursuing this.
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Post by Eric »

aslsp-fl wrote:mrscience, while the librarian job keeps me fairly busy, in my spare time I do organ recitals. In my next concert I will drop an UE piece for a IMSLP download of a little known public domain (19th century) work. - And, by the way, after I downloaded the piece, I ended buying anyway the original print (not published by UE). I do not think every IMSLP download is a lost sale to a publisher. First, a lot of pieces are downloaded for reference only - who could boast having read even an half of Bach complete works on a computer screen (and printing them would be a major chore)? Second, when you are serious, you often end buying a better or critical edition. Third, a bound book last longer than any copy or photocopy. Again, if you are serious, you need the original books. But maybe a download will send you in search of a book you did not even know it existed.
That is the Baen Free Library's (an online publisher's offering of some of their books as free downloads to web or other readers) reason for existence, for example, and I very much hope you are right also, and have been glad to do similar things with MIDI projects, minor (so far) typesetting projects of my own and thelike- that so long as it can be done well.

(In search of... a book, or composer, or... And Naxos, it seems, is making more of their material available online for free again also too. But there is a risk involved to the publisher in doing so or letting another do so, and the publisher won't so much go out of business as choose to make their business, I'm guessing, with other products. I can think of any number of radio stations in the USA that have gone from classical to popular in the last decade-and, not any in the other direction offhand, to draw up a weak but possibly not weak enough analogy.)

Eric
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