IMSLP Forums

I happened upon the IMSLP web site and noticed the request looking for hosts.

I've sent an email to the address and then wandered over here and decided to post the offer openly to the group, as well.

I am a strong proponent of not just Open Source, but also of Public Domain as well and operate my own Public Domain web site located at epub.yia.ca (which I'm in the process of shifting to a new server right now).

We just added a dual Xeon server to our pool which can partially be made available to host IMSLP.

I'm looking forward to discussions about this and will be keeping my eyes on the IMSLP plight and eventual resurrection.

Cheers,

Kevin

Hi Kevin!

I've also received your offer via e-mail, but I will respond here so that other people may chime in also.

Basically, IMSLP is looking for someone willing to shoulder the legal burden that may come with IMSLP.

We currently have a Pentium D 3.4/2G/320G server with iWeb for $99/mo, on which IMSLP is going to be hosted. We are willing to continue paying the hosting fees, but we need a person who is willing to own the server and domain, and thus handle the legal responsibility.

I can, of course, direct all legal support from the University of Ottawa, Stanford, and the University of Georgia to you, if you choose to own IMSLP. However, the conditions for the resurrection of IMSLP are that: 1. no files public domain in Canada are to be removed, and 2. no IP filter is going to be installed.

I thank you very much for your interest in helping IMSLP

imslp wrote:Hi Kevin!

I've also received your offer via e-mail, but I will respond here so that other people may chime in also.

Basically, IMSLP is looking for someone willing to shoulder the legal burden that may come with IMSLP.

I'm guessing that so far, the legal burden has simply been to seek council and research case studies. Since Canada follows the Berne Convention as closely as could be expected, I'm surprised a simple fair use defense wouldn't be admissible followed by a strong Tort not least being nuisance (harassment) but also possibly economic, not from the perspective of earnings from distribution of the expected public domain work which are in question, but rather from the perspective of economic harm intended to prevent continued operations of making available unquestioned public domain works.

imslp wrote:We currently have a Pentium D 3.4/2G/320G server with iWeb for $99/mo, on which IMSLP is going to be hosted. We are willing to continue paying the hosting fees, but we need a person who is willing to own the server and domain, and thus handle the legal responsibility.

Want to get a little clarification here. Does IMSLP simply need to transfer (on paper) the ownership of the server and domain and the server remains where it is on the current hosting company? Or is the above meant to describe the past needs so as to define what resources will be needed? I'm just wondering, because the above reads like a host computer will not be needed (ie. ", on which IMSLP is going to be hosted.") Either way doesn't really matter. The confusing part was that from the IMSLP web site home page, it did sound like a data/application host was also needed.

imslp wrote:I can, of course, direct all legal support from the University of Ottawa, Stanford, and the University of Georgia to you, if you choose to own IMSLP. However, the conditions for the resurrection of IMSLP are that: 1. no files public domain in Canada are to be removed, and 2. no IP filter is going to be installed.

Any work already done looking into this matter would be good to have. Also, I have some ins at sourceforge.net and also possibly fsf which would be drawn upon. I have two law firm clients and also have a lawyer friend, all of whom I've been trying to interest in IP law, but so far they aren't biting. This might be a nice introduction to get them interested.

Absolutely, without a doubt, Public Domain works, Canadian and otherwise, which are known to be clear and absolutely within public domain would remain available and therefore and also, no IP filters should be installed as there is no need to block anyone, either aggressor or user of the public domain work.

imslp wrote:I thank you very much for your interest in helping IMSLP

Not a problem.

krattai wrote:

imslp wrote:Hi Kevin!

I've also received your offer via e-mail, but I will respond here so that other people may chime in also.

Basically, IMSLP is looking for someone willing to shoulder the legal burden that may come with IMSLP.

I'm guessing that so far, the legal burden has simply been to seek council and research case studies. Since Canada follows the Berne Convention as closely as could be expected, I'm surprised a simple fair use defense wouldn't be admissible followed by a strong Tort not least being nuisance (harassment) but also possibly economic, not from the perspective of earnings from distribution of the expected public domain work which are in question, but rather from the perspective of economic harm intended to prevent continued operations of making available unquestioned public domain works.

Pretty much. I'm still waiting for UE to provide the particulars of its claim. And I have received no adequate response to this matter in almost 4 weeks. The main case UE claims is that a Canadian website is responsible for the potential copyright infringement in another country. Which I don't believe works, as several lawyers have assured me.

imslp wrote:We currently have a Pentium D 3.4/2G/320G server with iWeb for $99/mo, on which IMSLP is going to be hosted. We are willing to continue paying the hosting fees, but we need a person who is willing to own the server and domain, and thus handle the legal responsibility.

Want to get a little clarification here. Does IMSLP simply need to transfer (on paper) the ownership of the server and domain and the server remains where it is on the current hosting company? Or is the above meant to describe the past needs so as to define what resources will be needed? I'm just wondering, because the above reads like a host computer will not be needed (ie. ", on which IMSLP is going to be hosted.") Either way doesn't really matter. The confusing part was that from the IMSLP web site home page, it did sound like a data/application host was also needed.

Sorry for the confusion. When the front page was last updated, IMSLP was indeed in need of a better server. However, during this time I managed to get a hold of a rather good deal with iWeb8, which negates the need. Incidentally, I will still need iWeb8 in either case, as the files are not to be served from the main server, but from several mirror shared accounts hosted with iWeb (for the sake of bandwidth, which is cheaper with the shared accounts).

And yes, all that needs to be done is to transfer ownership of the server and accounts in question (as well as the domains).

imslp wrote:I can, of course, direct all legal support from the University of Ottawa, Stanford, and the University of Georgia to you, if you choose to own IMSLP. However, the conditions for the resurrection of IMSLP are that: 1. no files public domain in Canada are to be removed, and 2. no IP filter is going to be installed.

Any work already done looking into this matter would be good to have. Also, I have some ins at sourceforge.net and also possibly fsf which would be drawn upon. I have two law firm clients and also have a lawyer friend, all of whom I've been trying to interest in IP law, but so far they aren't biting. This might be a nice introduction to get them interested.

Absolutely, without a doubt, Public Domain works, Canadian and otherwise, which are known to be clear and absolutely within public domain would remain available and therefore and also, no IP filters should be installed as there is no need to block anyone, either aggressor or user of the public domain work.

Great If you would like, it would be nice to be in direct contact (via phone) to discuss particulars.

I also wanted to mention here that IMSLP is undergoing negotiations with Project Gutenberg Canada, but it would certainly be great if both of you can support IMSLP legally. If nothing else, we would be in a much better position to defend ourselves, should they try to do something else.

Regarding who ends up owning IMSLP, I'm sure we can work something out. It seems like both you and PGC have very similar visions, and I am sure you two will get along well

Yes, send me an email with phone number and times you're available and we can talk more about this.

Cheers!

It's great to see that, wherever it ends it. it should be back reletively soon.

-Lala-

imslp wrote:...if you choose to own IMSLP.

IMSLP is becoming property of one person we don't know?
What happens if Mr. Kevin or anyone else chooses to abandon everything after a couple of months and a couple of C&D letters, or when he runs in a car accident?

While I sincerely hope neither of these things will happen to either Mr.Kevin or our PGC sponsor, there will be a full backup system available when IMSLP comes back online. Regardless of who's "property" IMSLP becomes, there will inevitably be one single point of failure, so a backup system is very necessary.

The tricky part is to create a backup of the database without sensitive information, but yet can be used to recreate the text on the wiki, and be functional to a large degree like the original IMSLP. I am still working on this part, but will of course be very open to suggestions from anyone who happens to be knowledgeable about wiki backups.

Of course, IMSLP will always continue being in spirit (and actuality, after the backup system is implemented) the "property" (for the want of a better word) of IMSLP contributors, regardless of who the legal owner is. This has been the case thoroughout the first 2 years of IMSLP, and will continue to be the case.

That's a good question, Peter.

The reality would be that "Mr. Kevin" (ie. me, Kevin Rattai) would not be the owner. Rather, the corporation 4656416 Manitoba Ltd. (a holding company) would potentially (we haven't got to that part, yet) be the holding company for IMSLP. As it is for the companies of YIA.ca, Uvea I. S., Beausejour Computers, Beausejour Radio, etc. And behave as the host company for domains and servers such as Electric Minds, People First of Canada, etc. It's a security position.

It would not be my intention to control in any way, shape or form the processes nor direction of IMSLP. All work would continue as usual. Although the companies do not have huge staff, there is staff who will be available to ensure that IMSLP runs smoothly (and without me, as or if necessary).

It would be my intention (if desired) to help IMSLP create a poison pill to ensure that it cannot be controlled by any entity which could or would do harm for the mandate of IMSLP. Also, it would be important to put into place a process to ensure, to the best of the ability of IMSLP contributors, that all content be free and clear and in the public domain, or otherwise be very clearly stated as not in the public domain, with all appropriate acknowledgments, and with permission of copyright holders as they can be obtained (or otherwise the content cannot reside in the IMSLP database) and finally have IMSLP have very clear statements of all content otherwise being used and/or presented from a position of "fair use" as applicable and allowable and defensible.

I hope that answers some of the "tough" questions.

Two things:

1) I would much prefer a non-profit charitable organization be in charge. If that's possible with the holding company (however it would be set up), fine. But I'm leery of any for-profit company gaining control of IMSLP, no matter how good the original intentions are (and not to disrespect Mr. Kevin ).

2) Not to put too fine a point on it, but, as valuable as all the wikitext is (and it is; there's quite a bit of research there), its value is dwarfed by the scans', IMHO. I know I've been frustrated by not having access to them, and I'd like a 'social' backup (someone, somewhere outside of IMSLP has access to all the scans) in case IMSLP goes commercial or is sued to smithereens (or whatever).

2) Not to put too fine a point on it, but, as valuable as all the wikitext is (and it is; there's quite a bit of research there), its value is dwarfed by the scans', IMHO. I know I've been frustrated by not having access to them, and I'd like a 'social' backup (someone, somewhere outside of IMSLP has access to all the scans) in case IMSLP goes commercial or is sued to smithereens (or whatever).

By "full backup system", I mean a full backup system That is, everything, including images, source code and of course the wiki database, will be made available.

Again, I would be extremely grateful if someone would have time to research ways to back up the wiki database that is 1) not too system-intensive (I'd prefer SQL backups over XML), 2) can be used to recreate to a very functional wiki (i.e. the wiki after re-creation should be pretty much fully functional, and not just dead text), and 3) contains no private or sensitive information. I note here that IMSLP uses Mediawiki 1.11.0.

Wikipedia actually does have a good description of not for profit and how it operates and functions as opposed to a for profit organization:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organization

What seems to be the biggest detractor of projects such as IMSLP for being associated with for profit organizations is that of the corporate owners intentions and nothing else. IOW, that the owner may somehow modify their innate motivations and change the mandate of a project to suit their interest of self profit.

That is why I speak of the poison pill:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/poison_pill

And yet, the intentions of a not for profit board can be as self serving as that of a for profit board or corporate owner. There are plenty of examples of that in Canada and elsewhere.

Having said that, while I certainly can defend my position and what I believe in, it is very true that none of you otherwise know me. I have no need to put myself or my business into the middle of a legal battle. Still, for the right cause, it is the right thing to do. What do I get in return for doing that? Financially, nothing... Morally, I get the feeling of a job well done for the benefit of all. I don't take that lightly.

If the Canadian arm of Project Gutenberg takes on the "ownership" of IMSLP, then that is a good thing. Otherwise, it might be worth looking into incorporating IMSLP as a not for profit organization. The cost would run around $1,000. Legally, a for profit or not for profit provide the same types of protection. Taxes are prepared differently and there are strict limitations on how a not for profit can obtain money to offset the cost of operations.

But, the offer remains out there in the event that IMSLP needs a corporate shelter, for however long that may be necessary.

I also do not believe that the type of host organization (whether for-profit or not-for-profit) matters greatly, once you get past the name. IMSLP will continue to be freely available and accessible, and full backups will be made available.

We can, of course, move to an non-profit organization should the need arise. The other reason I believe the for-profit status of the hosting organization doesn't matter greatly is because of the backups. If people feel that IMSLP is going in the wrong direction, a fork of the project can be easily made.

I see that Kevin is very familiar with the ins and outs of organization creation, and I will trust Kevin with the creation of the said organization This matter (and including with PGC) should hopefully be solidified within the next month at the latest.

krattai wrote:And yet, the intentions of a not for profit board can be as self serving as that of a for profit board or corporate owner. There are plenty of examples of that in Canada and elsewhere.

That's certainly true, though it seems to me that for-profit corps tend to have a greater incentive to monetize whatever of their assets they can, especially when times are tough. (Though my view may, of course, be somewhat naive; the only non-profits I've worked with have been fairly exemplary in this matter.)

Having said that, while I certainly can defend my position and what I believe in, it is very true that none of you otherwise know me. I have no need to put myself or my business into the middle of a legal battle. Still, for the right cause, it is the right thing to do. What do I get in return for doing that? Financially, nothing... Morally, I get the feeling of a job well done for the benefit of all. I don't take that lightly.

I certainly didn't mean to question your motives; I'm quite eager to get IMSLP back online myself and greatly appreciate the mere fact that you've offered. I just want to voice my concerns so that they're available to discuss.

imslp wrote:By "full backup system", I mean a full backup system That is, everything, including images, source code and of course the wiki database, will be made available.

Okie-doke.