Second U-E cease and desist letter (new topic)

[Blouis79]

==============

I am not a lawyer but as somebody who publishes papers I know a bit about copyright here in Austria. According to Austrian law, copyright splits into two aspects:

1) The copyright for the work which ends death of author + 70

2) The copyright for the printed music which is also print date + 70 years, except the work is out of print and not available in used form

In order to be legally stored in the database, a work has to fulfill following criteria:

1) composer died before 1937 AND

2) the source of the print was published before 1937.

[I am not a lawyer either but...]

The cease and desist letter is very specific - there are only two demands:
1.

We therefore demand that you cease and desist from offering on your web site the musical scores and any other copyrighted works of the UE Authors.
[B . Bartok, A . Berg, l . Friedman, L . Janacek, G . Mahler, J .
Marx, O . Respighi, A. Schonberg, R. Strauss, K. Szymanowski and A. von Zemlinski]
These works should be removed by no later than October 19. 2007.

2.

We further demand that you institute a filtering system to the IMSLP that would prevent any further uploading of the UE Artists's scores until after the expiry of European and Canadian copyright in those works.

Further, we would expect other publishers to act similarly if there is breach of copyright.

Therefore the IMSLP is good to go *immediately* when:
A. Works of the UE Artists are removed.
B. Some system is in place to prevent addition of copyright works of UE Artists - immediately a notice that certain works are copyright and are not to be posted.

I wish I could see the site to check on what it says, but seems to me it could do with:
B1. a clear description of copyright law from each country - wiki contributors will fill that in
B2. A list of composers which indicates who died more than 70 years ago and who died more recently and flags when copyright will expire.
B3. A mechanism to prevent adding scores for composers still copyright
B4. A description of requirements for uploading scores which are not copyright
B5. Where copyright law is different in different countries, it could be feasible to implement country-specific behaviour by IP filtering. (eg for works with 50 year copyright in some countries)

Further, to permit legal protection of members/administrators, the site should perhaps be controlled by some legal body which limits liability - eg incorporated association. The body can collect donations to fund its work and individuals do not need to worry about losing their house if the organisation is sued.

It is not the stated intention of UE to shut down IMSLP. In fact UE would risk being sued if it did.

Go IMSLP......

[carmar1791]

All points B1 B2 B3 B4 were present in IMSLP site.
But There was no ip filtering (B5)
Greetings

[johnsonfromwisconsin]

Further, we would expect other publishers to act similarly if there is breach of copyright.

In Canada where the material is physically hosted, there was no breach.

Therefore the IMSLP is good to go *immediately* when:
A. Works of the UE Artists are removed.
B. Some system is in place to prevent addition of copyright works of UE Artists - immediately a notice that certain works are copyright and are not to be posted.

Your solution proposes a reversal of burden and on the grand scale of things, fingers the internet itself as the real problem [which is absurd]. Aside from the devisive use of the situation on how Canada may handle judgements from Europe, IMSLP has broken no local laws that would require them to expend resources it doesn't have for a remedy.

Further, to permit legal protection of members/administrators, the site should perhaps be controlled by some legal body which limits liability - eg incorporated association. The body can collect donations to fund its work and individuals do not need to worry about losing their house if the organisation is sued.

No offense, yet since there is no guarantee that donations and grants can properly fund such an institution, this would create an artificial or insurmountable barrier to other startups that share IMSLP's mission, making this notion really unconscionable.

[Blouis79]

All points B1 B2 B3 B4 were present in IMSLP site.
But There was no ip filtering (B5)
Greetings

The Berne Convention is clear on the treatment of international copyright:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Conv ... stic_Works

The Berne Convention requires its signatories to recognise the copyright of works of authors from other signatory countries (known as members of the Berne Union) in the same way it recognises the copyright of its own nationals, which means that, for instance, French copyright law applies to anything published or performed in France, regardless of where it was originally created.

If condition B is satisfied, then UE would have no case.

Five of the UE Artists died more than 70 years ago (* in list) in which case UE's claims of copyright seem dubious. They may be claiming copyright in a particular living person's arrangement.

Only one, J Marx, died inside 50 years.

There are only 5 composers in the 50-70 year gap.


Bio information from Wikipedia except J Marx from website listed:
Béla Viktor János Bartók (March 25, 1881 – September 26, 1945)
* Alban Maria Johannes Berg (February 9, 1885 – December 24, 1935)
Ignaz Friedman (also spelled Ignace or Ignacy) (February 13, 1882 – January 26, 1948)
* Leoš Janáček (July 3, 1854 – August 12, 1928)
* Gustav Mahler (July 7, 1860 – May 18, 1911)
*** J Marx (1882-1964) http://www.joseph-marx.org/en/josef-marx.html
* Ottorino Respighi (Bologna, July 9, 1879 - Rome, April 18, 1936)
Arnold Schoenberg (the anglicized form of Schönberg — Schoenberg changed the spelling officially when he left Germany and re-converted to Judaism in 1933; September 13, 1874 – July 13, 1951)
Richard Georg Strauss (June 11, 1864 – September 8, 1949)
* Karol Maciej Korwin-Szymanowski (October 6, 1882–March 28, 1937)
Alexander Zemlinsky or Alexander von Zemlinsky (October 14, 1871 – March 15, 1942)

In consideration of problems of international copyright:
1. What sort of responsibility does IMSLP have to prevent people downloading - possibly none - since a publisher of a work in any country cannot prevent its distribution to any other country except by control of official distribution channels over which it has control.
2. IMSLP may have responsibilty to prevent uploading from countries where copyright law says a work is still protected.
3. Prevention of download in Europe may be effected by a notice, which could be argued to be legally more effective than an IP filter or at least shift the burden of responsibility to the user rather than the site owner "This work is still copyright in Europe. Users in European countries are prohibited from downloading until [date]. Click the box "

[Melodia]

Blouis79, as others implied, WHY should IMSLP have to respect the death+7p, when it was hosted in Canada where the law is death+50? Again, I cite Dover scores. Stravinsky, for instance, isn't even PD in Canada, much less Austria/Germany, yet anyone online can buy a copy of The Firebird, no matter what country they are in -- because it's legal in the US on account of the 1923 rule.

And since death+70 ISN'T the maximum in the world, there's no reason to respect that over others.

-Lala-

[Blouis79]

In Canada where the material is physically hosted, there was no breach.

That appears not to be true for one artist - J Marx who apparently died in 1964.

Therefore the IMSLP is good to go *immediately* when:
A. Works of the UE Artists are removed.
B. Some system is in place to prevent addition of copyright works of UE Artists - immediately a notice that certain works are copyright and are not to be posted.

Your solution proposes a reversal of burden and on the grand scale of things, fingers the internet itself as the real problem [which is absurd]. Aside from the devisive use of the situation on how Canada may handle judgements from Europe, IMSLP has broken no local laws that would require them to expend resources it doesn't have for a remedy.

The solution is one to protect the interests of the site administrator, who has pulled the entire site for fear of litigation.

Further, to permit legal protection of members/administrators, the site should perhaps be controlled by some legal body which limits liability - eg incorporated association. The body can collect donations to fund its work and individuals do not need to worry about losing their house if the organisation is sued.

No offense, yet since there is no guarantee that donations and grants can properly fund such an institution, this would create an artificial or insurmountable barrier to other startups that share IMSLP's mission, making this notion really unconscionable.

I and presumably others are dismayed at the loss of the wonderful resource that IMSLP is. Other suggestions for solutions are welcome.

There is nothing to prevent the site going back up minus the UE Artists immediately, except the fear of the site administrator of legal action.

Incorporated associations run on the smell of oily rags and are probably the cheapest form of legal protection for the site administrator, should he feel he needs it.

[Blouis79]

Blouis79, as others implied, WHY should IMSLP have to respect the death+7p, when it was hosted in Canada where the law is death+50? Again, I cite Dover scores. Stravinsky, for instance, isn't even PD in Canada, much less Austria/Germany, yet anyone online can buy a copy of The Firebird, no matter what country they are in -- because it's legal in the US on account of the 1923 rule.

And since death+70 ISN'T the maximum in the world, there's no reason to respect that over others.

-Lala-

Only one good reason.

Immediately, UE has threatened legal action based on death+70 in europe, where UE is. Making UE immediately happy removes the immediate threat of legal action, which is a direct threat to the assets of the site administrator. Hopefully, further legal guidance will come soon.

Project Gutenberg publishing e-books may provide useful guidance:
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page
It also has a sheet music project - in infancy:
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg ... ic_Project

[johnsonfromwisconsin]

In Canada where the material is physically hosted, there was no breach.

That appears not to be true for one artist - J Marx who apparently died in
1964.

Thanks for the correction, you are correct! These materials should just have been removed.

Therefore the IMSLP is good to go *immediately* when:
A. Works of the UE Artists are removed.
B. Some system is in place to prevent addition of copyright works of UE Artists - immediately a notice that certain works are copyright and are not to be posted.

Your solution proposes a reversal of burden and on the grand scale of things, fingers the internet itself as the real problem [which is absurd]. Aside from the devisive use of the situation on how Canada may handle judgements from Europe, IMSLP has broken no local laws that would require them to expend resources it doesn't have for a remedy.

The solution is one to protect the interests of the site administrator, who has pulled the entire site for fear of litigation.

it was a solution, but a bad one for the reason's I've listed. It was a proposed compromise, but an ugly one that unjustly shifts the burden. Perhaps the publisher should have offered to give funding to to IMSLP allowing them resources to accomplish this? That would have been a fairer compromise. Afterall, the material is their's to protect in the realms that allow it, the burden is their's as well. Another compromise would be for the EU to settle for life +50. These may be harder to accomplish, but that doesn't matter.

Further, to permit legal protection of members/administrators, the site should perhaps be controlled by some legal body which limits liability - eg incorporated association. The body can collect donations to fund its work and individuals do not need to worry about losing their house if the organisation is sued.

No offense, yet since there is no guarantee that donations and grants can properly fund such an institution, this would create an artificial or insurmountable barrier to other startups that share IMSLP's mission, making this notion really unconscionable.

I and presumably others are dismayed at the loss of the wonderful resource that IMSLP is. Other suggestions for solutions are welcome.

I don't blame the admin for the takedown at all. At the end of the day he made the world a better place (which few can claim to have really done). My suggestion would probably go off topic to discuss that life + 50 is allready far too long...

There is nothing to prevent the site going back up minus the UE Artists immediately, except the fear of the site administrator of legal action.

That's kind of the point, isn't it? The public domain is a right, yet there is enough room in the legal climate to bully people out of it.

[Blouis79]

[[...]

There is nothing to prevent the site going back up minus the UE Artists immediately, except the fear of the site administrator of legal action.

That's kind of the point, isn't it? The public domain is a right, yet there is enough room in the legal climate to bully people out of it.

People don't have to be bullied if they know their rights. But if they are legally vulnerable, they need some legal protection. Lawyers do it all the time - creating barriers around assets to limit legal exposure. When the assets of the body being sued are less than the legal fees to pursue it, you are pretty safe.

[johnsonfromwisconsin]

Blouis, I appreciate the discourse, btw.

People don't have to be bullied if they know their rights.

One of the issues is that effectively the rights are not concrete in the following sense: If the publisher chose to persue this directly in Canada it may be a quick and relatively affordable dismissal, but there seems to be some question about what happens if they file in the life+70 EU. If the publisher was actually interested in confronting local rule of law, they would file in Canada, but they certainly wouldn't have done this. They would have relied instead on a back-door approach of filing in Europe knowing IMSLP wouldn't have the money the contest it, and then expect the Canadian courts to enforce the default (which may or may not have happened).

That's sleezy lawyering IMO.

[Blouis79]

Blouis, I appreciate the discourse, btw.

People don't have to be bullied if they know their rights.

One of the issues is that effectively the rights are not concrete in the following sense: If the publisher chose to persue this directly in Canada it may be a quick and relatively affordable dismissal, but there seems to be some question about what happens if they file in the life+70 EU. If the publisher was actually interested in confronting local rule of law, they would file in Canada, but they certainly wouldn't have done this. They would have relied instead on a back-door approach of filing in Europe knowing IMSLP wouldn't have the money the contest it, and then expect the Canadian courts to enforce the default (which may or may not have happened).

That's sleezy lawyering IMO.

I understand no action has been filed. They have merely written a cease and desist letter threatening to follow-up with litigation. I find it hard to see how exactly they can file in Europe against a Canadian citizen. And their chances of winning an action in Canada may not be good. And it may be that the UE letter is just a front for a more organized music publisher action alluded to in another thread.

Having no assets is always useful protection from litigation.

By the way, it is my understanding that the assets of an unincorporated association extend to the assets of *all* of its members.

[glinzek]

Mr Feldmahler:

I have just joined, but have been a fan and supporter of IMSLP, and I am outraged. The work you have done should not die, and I have alerted many of the participants in the Classical section of Yahoo Answers (some very respectable folk) to the assault in IMSLP.

Here is the body of an email that I have sent to Universal's legal representatives:
=========================
To: kclark@airdberlis.com


Sirs:

You may tell your client that I am not alone in finding their behavior regarding the International Music Scores Library Project (IMSLP) highly disappointing. Not only does this sort of elitest behavior reflect badly on the reputation of your client, but it also is detrimental to the ongoing effort by so many in the music community to educate the public about classical music in general, which you must agree is necessary given the current level of ignorance about fine art music, especially in North America.

A firm like Universal should be an active participant in this educational effort, and instead of using such a heavy-handed approach, should hold out a hand of partnership and cooperation to IMSLP in helping them fine-tune their website to everybody's satisfaction. The value from a public relations standpoint for Universal would be incalculable.

Your client's actions, selfishness, and shortsightedness has caused an understaffed and overtaxed website to close up shop, a real tragedy to the music community considering the unique and monumentally helpful product that it offered.

I am not an inveterate "downloader" of copyrighted material, and in fact am an outspoken critic of those that do so. I even own many of Universal's fine publications, but I cannot now in good conscience consider buying any more, or recommending to anyone else that they do. As I am in a position of some influence in this community regarding such things, and as there are a great many others like me who feel similarly, your client may find that this attitude of theirs may be more detrimental to their business than the potential losses they foresee from a website which in actuality offered very little music from their catalog, and subsequently posed very little threat to their business. I especially take issue with their reference to the works of Bela Bartok, the rights of which are owned by Boosey and Hawkes in North America, and in any case there was only one of his works available on the IMSLP site. This particular red herring is perhaps the most irritating and insulting of all the "complaints" that Universal is making, since it respresented no threat to them whatsoever.

I am angry and disappointed as I write this, but I have been extremely civil under the circumstances. I sincerely hope that you can find it within your power to convince Universal to reconsider their course of action, and to enter into more of a mentorship and partnership style of relationship with IMSLP, rather than an adversarial one.

Sincerely,
=========================

Now, frankly, I don't feel it will help, but it felt good. Now, expurgate the culprit files, and get IMSLP back up and running!!! Just be really strict about post-1923 publications. The music community NEEDS IMSLP.

[Yagan Kiely]

The music community needs music, why give in and be governed by a foreign body? A majority of the world has death + 50 NOT death + 70.

IP banning Europe and the US should EASILY suffice. There is no need to deprive the majority of the world of music.

A. Works of the UE Artists are removed.
B. Some system is in place to prevent addition of copyright works of UE Artists - immediately a notice that certain works are copyright and are not to be posted.

[MrPianoMan80]

Hi there,
When I first discovered IMSLP I was utterly amazed and truely grateful that such a resource had been provded. As a secondary school Music teacher this site was invaluable to myslef and to my students.

Feldmahler, you are not to blame for the closure of the site, though it is a truly, truly sad day. My heart sank when I read your statement. I really feel horrible that it had to come to this and wish there was something I could do.

I have hundreds of pieces saved, particularly concertos. Can I help financially? What kind of money are we talking about? I would gladly give them all to you for nothing. I just want there to be a better solution than just shutting the site down. Can you let me know what kind of help you would need in order to keep the site running A.S.A.P


James Petridis
Melbourne, Australia (jpiano80@hotmail.com)

[michael_budiman]

Thank you mr. feldmahler and IMSLP contributors, even though i have only know you for just a couple of months.

I am from Indonesia which is one of the countries mr. feldmahler mentioned. In bookstores here in Indonesia, you can say only a very small amount of them sells music scores. One I found only sells music scores only in such little counter (2ft x 4 ft). And it is the only major bookstore that sells music score. In the capital, Jakarta, I know only 1 bookshop specialized in music, it's 6ft by 4ft.

I found it very difficult to find music scores, and with the average of $4-$5 wage a day, scores have become luxury items here. And $10 per score + shipping is an enourmous burden.

I was very delighted when I found IMSLP, and hoped that IMSLP can change the face of Indonesian classical music world.... Universal edition... huh!!