IMSLP Forums

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:08 pm**

Dear musicians,

we have followed here what turns out to be a relatively balanced discussion. Please do know that we appreciate the amount of interest in this subject and we take your comments very seriously. Thank you also for the serious e-mails we have received on the subject.

We are dismayed by the readiness of some people to categorically stamp a company such as UE – which has done more than any other publisher to advance the cause of music in the 20th century – as a wicked corporation hell-bent on destruction, and all that based on a) a misunderstanding and b) the wording of a C&D letter.

We owe an explanation which should clear up one misunderstanding, i.e. that we are asking public domain material to be removed. Let’s take some examples from our list:

Leos Janacek is in copyright in Spain.
Richard Strauss is still in copyright in Europe.
Alban Berg is still in copyright in Spain and some works in France.
Some of the works by Mahler are arrangements or edited versions, which means they enjoy copyright protection for their editors.
Joseph Marx is in full copyright worldwide, including Canada.
Schönberg is in copyright in Europe and the USA.
Bartók is in copyright in Europe and the USA.

Let me repeat, we are not disputing the obvious fact that public domain material should be freely available. As a colleague said to me over lunch, we are ourselves producing the public domain of the future. Please do not confuse our complaint with the absurd demand for some kind of perpetual copyright (and relax, Mexico’s copyright is apparently life plus 75 years, not 100, as some opinions here maintain – see http://www.wipo.int/clea/docs_new/pdf/en/mx/mx003en.pdf).

Let us turn to the real matter at hand: what is to be done about the offline IMSLP collection?

One word which has been conspicuously absent from the discussions here is “free”. Whilst it is great to have music to download for free, “free” doesn’t buy servers or pay for hosting (I know, I’ve been there).

Why doesn’t one of the enthusiastic participants here start a list asking people to pledge $10 towards the set up of a new system? I’ll join straight away. Just show me where to sign.

We understand that you’re angry that the site is down. Let me repeat my request: restart that server. Play it by the book and you will see that our publisher colleagues will not stand in your way.

Best wishes to all.

Jonathan Irons
music@universaledition.com

-----
EDIT: I have been given consent, by Mr. Irons to provide details of his position in UE. In his own words:
"My position here at UE in Vienna is promotion manager. I also have responsibilities in our publishing and sales groups"

I have not modified, the original post in any way. AW7

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:34 pm**

This appears to be a much, much more reasonable post, (i.e. no accusations of censorship, or incompetence etc.).

Leos Janacek is in copyright in Spain.
Richard Strauss is still in copyright in Europe.
Alban Berg is still in copyright in Spain and some works in France.
Some of the works by Mahler are arrangements or edited versions, which means they enjoy copyright protection for their editors.
Joseph Marx is in full copyright worldwide, including Canada.
Schönberg is in copyright in Europe and the USA.
Bartók is in copyright in Europe and the USA.

With the exception of Marx, and judging from all your posts, I do assume that you have no objection to Canadians (and Australians for some - the addition of 20 years was not made retrospective) downloading the Janacek, Strauss, Berg, Schoenberg or Bartok?

At first I ask that you provide an extensive and exhaustive list of the pieces of all the composers in question, and which you believe to be completely out of copyright in Canada.

Sincerely,

AW7

(You always manage to post whenever I am about to sleep, 'tis annoying.

)

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:41 pm**

Universal Edition Vienna is saying restart IMSLP.

I think the closing down of IMSLP has to be because of some kind of big mis-understanding.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:57 pm**

A straight question to you Jonathan,

If the works which are public domain in Canada, remain on the server, but are somehow inaccesible from the countries, to which the works are not copyrighted, is this an ok comprimise? Cause I would really, hate to see all those public domain works, in Canada, be lost for Canada, and any other country to which they belong in the copyright free area!

Other than that, you should be perfectly aware that IMSLP did their best to go by the book, and for most of common sensed people the warning it gave out "be careful, this is copyright free in Canade, but not Spain" (<- for example), was more than enough.

This seems to be the only problem, that your legal counsels do not accept that warning as enough, were it is more than enough in every other part of the world and pretty much anything (movies and the rating, games and ratings, porn, and everything else. There is no problem in a 16 year old playing Rockstar games (sorry, I work in the gaming industry myself), and certainly this is no problem of Rockstar.

I am 100% sure that noone in IMSLP wants to go against the law, as it is now (maybe change the law but this is completely irrelavent). Any scores that were not public domain, I am aware that were quickly removed (as humanly possible), and the ones that were from contemporary composers (such as my self) were taken with permission.

This part dealt with and everything should be perfect if I see it correctly. I'm sure that the heads of IMSLP will find a way to cover the running expenses, which I also know are a burden (I'm also there, right now!)

Kind regards,

Nikolas Sideris

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:12 pm**

Universal Vienna Edition has also volunteered to fund.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:51 pm**

Once again, here are the works named in C & D letter 1, with my addition of original publisher, publication date and IMSLP holding info:

Bartók Béla (1881-1945)
Allegro Barbaro (pub.1918, UE) - IMSLP has a Muzika ed.
Bagatelles, Op. 6 (pub.1909, Rozsnyai) - IMSLP has a Muzika ed.
Burlesques, Op. 8c (pub.1912, Rozsavolgyi) - IMSLP has a Muzika ed.
Improvisations on Hungarian Peasant Songs, Op. 20 (pub.1921, UE) - IMSLP has a Muzika ed.
Little Pieces for Piano (pub.1927, UE) - IMSLP has a Muzika ed.
Petite Suite for Piano (pub.1936, UE) - IMSLP has a Muzika ed.
Piano Concerto No. 1 (pub.1927, UE)
Piano Concerto No. 2 (pub.1932, UE) - IMSLP has a Muzika ed.
Piano Concerto No. 3 (pub.1947, Boosey & Hawkes) - IMSLP has a Muzika ed.
[Four] Piano Pieces (pub.1904, Bard Farenc) - IMSLP also has Muzika ed.
Piano Sonata (pub.1927, UE)
Rhapsody, Op. 1 (pub.1908, Rozsavolgyi) - IMSLP has a Muzika ed.
Romanian Christmas Carols (pub.1918, UE)
Romanian Folk Dances for small orchestra (pub.1922, UE)
Romanian Folk Dances (pub.1918, UE)
[3] Rondos on Slovak Folk Tunes (pub.1930, UE) - IMSLP has a Muzika ed.
Sonatina (pub.1919, Rozsavolgyi) - IMSLP also has 1950 rev. ed.
String Quartet No. 1, Op.7 (pub.1911, Rozsavolgyi)
String Quartet No. 2, Op.17 (pub.1920, UE)
String Quartet No. 3 (pub.1929, UE)
String Quartet No. 4 (pub.1929, UE)
String Quartet No. 5 (pub.1936, UE)
Suite for Piano, Op. 14 (pub.1918, UE) - IMSLP also has Muzika ed.

Berg Alban (1885-1935)
5 Orchesterlieder, Op. 4 - no longer at IMSLP
Piano Sonata, Op. 1 (pub. 1910, rev.1920 Lienau)
Violin Concerto "To the Memory of an Angel" (pub.1936, UE)

Friedman Ignaz (1882-1948)
6 Mazurkas, Op. 85 (pub.1925, UE)
Piano Transcriptions (Grazioli) (pub.1913, UE)
Piano Transcriptions (Rameau) (pub.1913, 1914 UE)
3 Pieces, Op. 33 (pub.1911, UE)
Polnische Lyrik, Op. 53 (pub.1913, UE)
Polnische Lyrik, Op. 60 (pub.1915, UE)
Polnische Lyrik, Op. 72 (pub.1917, UE)
4 Preludes, Op. 48 (pub.1912, UE)
4 Preludes, Op. 61 (pub.1915, UE)
Stimmungen, Op. 79 (pub.1918, UE)
Studies on a Theme of Paganini, Op. 47b (pub.1914, UE)
5 Waltzes, Op. 51 (pub.1912, UE)
With the Marionettes, Op. 22 (pub.1920, UE)

Janacek, Leos (1854-1928)
Violin Sonata [No. 3] (pub.1922, Hudebni Matice)

Mahler Gustav (1860-1911)
Piano Quartet in A Minor - no longer at IMSLP
Symphony No. 1 (pub.1898, Weiinberger, rev.1906, UE)
Symphony No. 2 (pub.1897, Hofmeister, rev.1906, UE)
Symphony No. 8 (pub.1910, UE)

Marx Joseph (1882-1964)
Albumblatt (pub.1916, UE)
Ballade (pub.1916, UE)
Prelude and Fugue (pub.1916, UE)
Romantic Piano Concerto (pub.1920, UE)
Trio Phantasie (pub.1914, UE)

Respighi, Ottorino (1879-1936)
3 Preludes (pub.1920, UE)

Schönberg, Arnold (1874-1951)
2 Balladen, Op. 12 (pub.1920, UE)
15 Gedichte aus Das Buch der hängenden Gärten, Op. 15 (pub.1914, UE)
2 Gesänge für baritone, Op. 1 (pub.1903, Birnbach)
Klavierstücke, Op. 33a (pub.1929, UE)
4 Lieder, Op. 2 (pub.1903, Birnbach)
6 Lieder, Op. 3 (pub.1904, Birnbach)
8 Lieder, Op. 6 (pub.1907, Birnbach)
2 Lieder, Op. 14 (pub.1920, UE)
2 Little Piano Pieces, Op. 19 (pub.1913, UE)
3 Pieces, Op. 11 (pub.1916, UE)
Pierrot Lunaire, Op. 21 (pub.1914, UE)
Suite. Op. 25 (pub.1925, UE)
Verklärte Nacht. Op. 4 (pub.1904, Birnbach)

Strauss, Richard (1864-1949)
Piano Sonata, Op. 5 (pub.1883, Jos. Aibl)

Szymanowski, Karol (1882-1937) - public domain in EU on 1/1/08, unless work first publ. after 1937.
4 Etudes, Op. 4 (pub.1906, UE)
Metopes, Op. 29 (pub.1922, UE)
Piano Sonata No. 2, Op. 21 (pub.1912, UE)
9 Preludes, Op. 1 (pub.1906, UE)
Variations on a Polish Folk Theme, Op. 10 (pub.1906, UE)

Zemlinsky, Alexander von (1871-1942)
6 Songs after Poems by Maeterlink, Op. 13 (pub.1914, UE)

Assertions from UE's most recent post (7 composers):

Leos Janacek is in copyright in Spain.
Richard Strauss is still in copyright in Europe.
Alban Berg is still in copyright in Spain and some works in France.
Some of the works by Mahler are arrangements or edited versions, which means they enjoy copyright protection for their editors.
Joseph Marx is in full copyright worldwide, including Canada.
Schönberg is in copyright in Europe and the USA.
Bartók is in copyright in Europe and the USA.

1. Janacek's country of origin is Czechoslovakia, not Spain. While it is certainly possible that his works are protected in Spain, it is also entirely possible that Spain's life-plus-80 term applies only to Spanish authors. He is public domain in the rest of the EU.

2. (Strauss) Yes, he is copyright in the EU.

3. Berg's country of origin is Austra, not Spain or France. As with Janacek, he could be protected in those two countries - depending on who they apply the extended term to.

4. (Mahler) There was cosiderable debate at IMSLP over the Mahler: Symphony 1, in which an urtext edition copyright is claimed. The edition was not a re-engraving, however, and used the identical plates from the 1906 score, with some editorial modifications - not enough to justify a new engraving, apparently. That edition falls in a gray area under Canada's law. I, personally, would be in favor of removing it. The arrangers of some of the piano reductions are likely still protected in the EU.

5. (Marx) This claim is factually incorrect. All titles in the list are public domain in the USA. As I mentioned on another thread, the USA server was quite problematic from a technical standpoint and was going to be scrapped shortly, which would eliminate the Marx titles from the debate in any case. Project Gutenburg, or any site hosted in the USA, is free to put them up, of course.

6. (Schönberg) Factually incorrect again. All but two titles are public domain in the USA. All are public domain in Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. Yes, they are protected in the EU.

7. (Bartok) Incorrect again. All but nine titles are public domain in the USA, and those nine are controlled there by Boosey and Hawkes, not UE. He's PD in most of the world, but still protected in the EU.
--------

Mr. Irons and UE demand that IMSLP should abide by EU, Spanish, and French copyright laws, even though IMSLP is in Canada, and furthermore enforce EU, Spanish, and French copyright laws in Canada, and upon those who visit from the USA, Australia, Japan, etc. There is nothing reasonable about this. It is the responsibility of Spanish Internet Providers to enforce Spain's copyright laws, French providers to enforce those of France, and so on. It is manifestly not IMSLP's responsibility to enforce EU copyright upon the entire world. Putting $10 in a tip jar is not volunteering to fund a complex filtering mechanism whereby visitors from the EU would be limited to downloading only those titles which are public domain in the EU.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:08 pm**

I certainly thank UE for this respectful and explanatory statement. However, I think that the point of contention which neither side sees fit to compromise on is the level of legal responsibility of IMSLP concerning people from other countries downloading works which are public domain in Canada, but not from the country in question.

There has to be some sort of legal precedent, doesn't there? Most feel (including the attorney who specializes in copyright law) that the warnings on the site were sufficient, and the responsibility lies within the foreign country to prevent and/or punish downloaders for the copyright infringement. I mean, if this was not true, wouldn't the entire internet basically be shut down??

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:35 pm**

It is manifestly not IMSLP's responsibility to enforce EU copyright upon the entire world. Putting $10 in a tip jar is not volunteering to fund a complex filtering mechanism whereby visitors from the EU would be limited to downloading only those titles which are public domain in the EU.

That's basically how I see it. UEV's assertions are not compatable with the internet. Since most nations proscribe to Life+50, anything beyond that becomes problematic to enforce and it's something that UEV needs to account for.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:41 pm**

If Universal and Mr. Irons are genuinely interested in resolving this impasse, here are some suggestions:

1. Withdraw all threats of legal action, demands for large sums of money and terminate the services of Ken Clark, et al.

2. Offer to assist IMSLP in constructing a system whereby those titles under copyright in the EU would be either unavailable for download or print-disabled for those who accessed IMSLP from EU domains, leaving the works freely accessible to those visiting from places where they are public domain.

3. Post some of your own works by new or less-known composers (that you at least theoretically are interested in promoting) here at IMSLP using one of the several CC Licenses available. Uploading a study score for an orchestral or large ensemble work minus parts allows anyone visting IMSLP to explore and look over what you're offering. Including links to a recording and a site where they can purchase a printed copy enhances the vistor's options even more - all on a server you don't have to pay for maintained by tech-minded folks you don't have to pay on a site visited by tens of thousand of people from all over the world every single day. Guess who benefits in the end? The composers (via increased exposure and potential performances), UE itself (via increased exposure and potential performances), not to mention everyone who gets the thrill of discovering wonderful music for the first time.

Start thinking outside the narrow box, UE.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:32 pm**

Thank you UE for attempting to explain your actions somewhat reasonably and maturely (mature is the first post in this thread; immature is that C&D letter). However, like a few other people, I'm a little confused about why a Canadian site on a Canadian server run by a Canadian guy should be enforcing EU and other countries' copyright laws.

Carolus wrote:If Universal and Mr. Irons are genuinely interested in resolving this impasse, here are some suggestions:

1. Withdraw all threats of legal action, demands for large sums of money and terminate the services of Ken Clark, et al.

2. Offer to assist IMSLP in constructing a system whereby those titles under copyright in the EU would be either unavailable for download or print-disabled for those who accessed IMSLP from EU domains, leaving the works freely accessible to those visiting from places where they are public domain.

3. Post some of your own works by new or less-known composers (that you at least theoretically are interested in promoting) here at IMSLP using one of the several CC Licenses available. Uploading a study score for an orchestral or large ensemble work minus parts allows anyone visting IMSLP to explore and look over what you're offering. Including links to a recording and a site where they can purchase a printed copy enhances the vistor's options even more - all on a server you don't have to pay for maintained by tech-minded folks you don't have to pay on a site visited by tens of thousand of people from all over the world every single day. Guess who benefits in the end? The composers (via increased exposure and potential performances), UE itself (via increased exposure and potential performances), not to mention everyone who gets the thrill of discovering wonderful music for the first time.

Start thinking outside the narrow box, UE.

I think these are all excellent ideas.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:24 pm**

Carolus wrote: 1. Janacek's country of origin is Czechoslovakia, not Spain. While it is certainly possible that his works are protected in Spain, it is also entirely possible that Spain's life-plus-80 term applies only to Spanish authors. He is public domain in the rest of the EU.

Applying Spain's life+80 years term only to Spanish authors would be in violation of well-established European law, which prohibits any form of discrimination of non-nationals. (Countries may only discriminate against their own nationals, not nationals of other EU countries.)

Note that Spain moved to life+70 with the EU harmonization, but has some surviving life+80 works in the transition period.

I think we in the EU should all get the process started to get copyright terms back to reasonable in the EU, and write to various European parliamentarians, political parties, etc., to this effect. To start with, we should try and get a reversion to life+50 back on political parties agenda. I am still highly irritated by the 1995 steal-back extension.

P.S., maybe you can avoid the term "protection works" in relation with copyright. The only thing copyright thus is to "restrict" or "burden" works, if you want a more neutral term, use "regulate", or just the word "copyright" as verb.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:12 pm**

Universal Edition Vienna wrote: Alban Berg is still in copyright in Spain and some works in France.

As I am French and I quite know our special wartime extention laws, I'd like to ask you which of Berg's works you say are still protected in France.
Theses extentions only apply to works published in France (before 1921 and/or before 1948). I don't know any, and if there are (at which French publishers?), they shouldn't belong to UE - am I right?

This is only said to help improve IMSLP warnings, which you should remember where a willingly implemented, non legally necessary feature.
(I don't speak of IP filters because they're unnecessary, and unfair to IMSLP; I don't speak of national ISP's filtering because, again, it is unnecessary, and unfair to non-Canadian (et al.) users because ISPs would probably ban the entire site.)

Pierre

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:44 pm**

samthegreat wrote:I[...]

There has to be some sort of legal precedent, doesn't there? Most feel (including the attorney who specializes in copyright law) that the warnings on the site were sufficient, and the responsibility lies within the foreign country to prevent and/or punish downloaders for the copyright infringement. I mean, if this was not true, wouldn't the entire internet basically be shut down??

And the Law Society of Canada vs CCH case is a precedent that a warning may be sufficient. See Legal Information thread for source.
viewtopic.php?t=680

PS I think Carolus's ideas are great, too.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:45 pm**

I've been following this discussion with interest, and for me the fundamental issue boils down to the following:

What sheet music is copyrighted, in which country does it apply, and for how long?

The whole copyright situation is obviously extraordinarily and unnecessarily complicated, but never mind, we have to work with what we have. There is a lot of conjecture flying around, but there must be clear facts out there, and there must be someone who knows what they are. I imagine Mr. Irons might be in a good position to clear up some of these points once and for all.

I want to start with Mr. Irons' list from the beginning of this thread:

1. Why is a composer such as Janacek protected in a country in which he was not born, where he never lived (as far as I know), and where none of his works were ever published (again, as far as I know)? Who benefits from this protection? Does this mean that Janacek's music is out of copyright in every single country in the world, except for Spain?

2. How is it that Schoenberg is still in copyright in the USA (a country with which I have some slight familiarity)? Dover publishes some of his works. Masters does too. We all know that neither of these publishers produce original editions, only reprints.

3. Similarly, how is Bartok still copyrighted in the USA? Many of his works are reprinted by Dover.

What I think Mr. Irons meant to say (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that some works by these composers are copyrighted. Perhaps Bartok's Allegro Barbaro is in the public domain in the US, but not the Viola Concerto? Perhaps Verklerte Nacht is PD, but Gurrelieder is not? I don't know. But who does? Until these rules are crystal clear it will be very difficult for IMSLP or any other musician interested in following the law to move forward.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:50 pm**

Dover Edition had already published Schoenberg and Bartok, and others, under the old USA law (life +30 years if I remember correctly). When the new law came in, as I understand it, they negotiated with the original publishers so as not to have to withdraw their already-printed scores. No idea what sort of terms they made and I'd be surprised if they're keen to discuss what's presumably confidential information on the subject.

IMSLP Forums

UE update Thursday 25th October

UE update Thursday 25th October

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