Tournemire - L'Orgue Mystique [Copyright Status]

[Theodopolis]

Could I make an enquiry as to the copyright status of Charles Tournemire's L'Orgue Mystique.
http://imslp.org/wiki/L%27Orgue_Mystiqu ... Charles%29

They were published in 1930 and Tournemire died in 1937. The whole work (51 volumes) is currently blocked and yet other Tournemire scores are not.

Could someone please confirm the copyright of these scores

Regards,
Theodopolis[/url]

[vinteuil]

U.S. Status. It will be out of copyright in 2028 in the U.S.

[Theodopolis]

Can you expand on this? - If Charles Tournemire died in 1937, 71 years have passed since his death, thus putting his works in the public domain.

[Lyle Neff]

Can you expand on this? - If Charles Tournemire died in 1937, 71 years have passed since his death, thus putting his works in the public domain.

That's not the U.S. law.

[duncancourts]

Hello - also very interested in Tournemire's L'Orgue Mystique for research purposes - the work is almost impossible to get access to in the UK.

Despite previous replies on this topic I still don't understand why L'Orgue Mystique is blocked. The work was published in France, scanned and uploaded in Poland and I'm in the UK. As far as the IMSLP explains, the servers are located in (and are subject to) Canadian copyright law. By all these laws, L'Orgue Mystique is out of copyright and has been for more than a year. Where does US law come into it?

Sorry if I've missed anything obvious.

[Theodopolis]

Could the l'Orgue Mystique at least lose the Non-PD EU Tag, since all of Tournemire's works are public domain under European Law.

[Carolus]

Simply not true. Tournemire died in 1939. His works will not enter the general EU public domain until Jan. 1, 2010. Please read our pages on public domain about how terms run to the end of the year. Moreover, certain EU countries actually have longer terms than 70pma. Spain has a term of 80pma, and France adds up to nearly 15 years for French composers who lived through the world wars, or works published between 1918 and 1948. Tournemire is therefore unlikely to be public domain in some parts of the EU until at least 2020. While he is clearly public domain in Canada, we've explained numerous times that IMSLP's proximity to the USA - along with the very large number of users from that country - require us to block items for the time being that are not PD in the USA as long as there continue to be veiled threats circulating among various music publishers and publisher associations. So, unless you are willing to go to the donation button and contribute $500,000 USD to pay for attorney fees, you're going to have to be patient like everyone else has been.

[pierre.chepelov]

... and France adds up to nearly 15 years for French composers who lived through the world wars, or works published between 1918 and 1948.

For France: L'Orgue mystique was published during the 1921-1948 period, so only the 8 years and 120 days WWII wartime extension apply. So this work is protected in France until May 2018 (1940 + 70 + 8y & 120d), still belonging to Heugel/Leduc.

[duncancourts]

OK, thanks for the clarification. Wasn't trying to pick faults, and I accept the mistake about Tournemire's date of death. Just didn't understand why US law was invoked when the IMSLP's own copyright page states that it follows Canadian copyright law.

[Arturo]

Alright. It looks that Tournemire will be still blocked for some time. I can't say i'm happy - i put a lot of effort in scanning the whole work. [EDIT: Filesharing is not allowed on these forums. --Leonard Vertighel]
I still hope that Canadian law will apply to Tournemire soon.
Best wishes,
A.

[vinteuil]

We do not discuss file sharing on IMSLP. The whole point is that we have not been able to trust people from the U.S. not to lie. Please cease and desist.

[Leonard Vertighel]

The whole point is that we have not been able to trust people from the U.S. not to lie.

Err, no, it's not that we are considering people from the US as more prone to lying than, say, people from the EU. But due to how IMSLP is currently organized, it is necessary to follow US law. This may change at some point in the future. Feldmahler may be able to give more details about this.

[vinteuil]

Woops. I was a little angry (not at you, don't worry!). I kind of flamed...sorry

[duncancourts]

I was a little angry

Not sure of the need to be angry. I fully accept the restrictions that IMSLP is operating under, especially given the diversity of copyright laws across the globe. I also understand the responsibility of the end user not to break whichever copyright laws apply to them, and I accept the flak that IMSLP may attract from those with a commercial interest in stopping the distribution of PD material. I do think, though, that if - for any reason - those running IMSLP decide to follow U.S. law, that this needs to be explained on the website, otherwise more people are going to ask more simple and logical questions and end up getting flamed for it. Those on the 'inside' may feel that a curt reply such as

U.S. Status. It will be out of copyright in 2028 in the U.S.

is sufficient explanation in reply to a genuine question, but it does nothing to foster a community spirit and promotes a 'them' and 'us' attitude - if you don't somehow understand how the 'insiders' make their decisions, you have no business in asking for clarification - or that's how it's come across to me.

I was going to upload some material which I know to be public domain in the UK (and probably most of the EU), but I'm really not sure whether to go to the trouble of scanning it if there's the distinct possibility of the material being blocked because of a decision to follow some other seemingly uninvolved country's copyright law without any explanation or guidance.

[imslp]

First of all, everyone, chill out. Duncan has a point that this must not turn into an "us" vs "them" battle. All IMSLP users and contributors are "us", and I do not want infighting.

Also, after discussions yesterday with another IMSLP admin I agree that the dual copyright status of IMSLP is to be noted, but including the following points:

1. While files downloadable from IMSLP must be both public domain in Canada and the US due to a variety of reasons, files submitted to IMSLP need only follow Canadian laws.
2. Files public domain in Canada but not the US will be temporarily unavailable for download, but will at some point be released when the corresponding situation is resolved. Do not expect this to be soon; rather, expect the timescale to be that of years, though nowhere near a decade.
3. A "US" server will be reestablished, containing works public domain in the US but not Canada nor necessarily the EU. With this established, IMSLP is essentially running on US copyright, but with the ability to run on Canadian copyright in a few years. I also know a few contributors are working on digitizing the catalog of renewed works between 1923 and 1964. When this is completed, we will be able to release works published between those years, but are not renewed and thus public domain.
4. People are not particularly encouraged to scan non-PD US works if they do not want to because of the block. However, it is still very much encouraged to submit pre-scanned files that are non-PD US but PD-Canada, as preparation for the unblocking. There should be in the near future the new feature of URL uploading, meaning that people can directly upload files from other places on the net without having to download them first, which should make this even easier.
5. Files blocked due to non-PD US will now have the symbol [TB] (Technical Block) instead of the current generic .

* * *

I confess here that I may not have handled the situation as well as possible, but I'll make the slight excuse that I myself did not know the direction it would all take until yesterday.

Also, responding to Duncan's point about "us" vs "them", I do not believe any IMSLP administrator except me and one other contributor actually knows the myriad of reasons for this technical block of non-PD US files. So even the admins don't know the reason when they give a simple answer on US copyright; they are just accepting the current arrangement.

Peter (and a few other IMSLP contributors I believe) has before been rather critical about the "black box" decisions made on behalf of IMSLP, which I think is very understandable, and, in fact, indicative of a healthy community. However, while I am happy to be open about any other decision made on behalf of IMSLP, I do not think it to be beneficial at this stage to be openly discussing issues with partially legal content/rationale and wholly legal consequences. I know many people in the publishing industry are following IMSLP's every move with what cannot entirely be described as good intent, including my posts on the forums. In fact, I have recently received a threat that refers directly to a post on the forums (though the threat has since been fended off). The more information leaked, the slower the unblocking process will be.

* * *

Here I would like to ask a favor of IMSLP users and contributors. I would like you to trust me and other IMSLP administrators. I understand that this may be hard especially when few reasons are given, but do remember that I do not work on IMSLP for money (in fact, I have received precisely none), as another administrator can attest to. My sole objective with regards to IMSLP is to secure as rosy a future for the project as I can possibly achieve. For this purpose, possibilities have to be balanced with the associated risks, and I do not want to send IMSLP into its own destruction because of unnecessary risk-taking.

I do not mind being the tortoise against the hare: our goals will not be reached with speed, but we will get there one step at a time, yielding to no threat. I did not create IMSLP just so it can disappear anytime soon, nor do I believe it the intention of IMSLP contributors who have worked so hard on the site.