IMSLP Forums

I am trying to determine the status of My Sweetheart's Like Venus, arranged by Gustav Holst. If possible I would like to upload it to IMSLP Canada and also to create editions for cpdl.org for US use. I've read https://imslp.org/wiki/Public_domain and done some research and I know the following at present:

• I've only found one published edition, which is the 61295 Curwen edition
• This edition states "Copyright, U.S.A.: 1933, by Gustav Holst" at the bottom of the first page
• This edition is still on sale today from various providers
• The melody is a traditional Welsh folk song (Mae 'Nghariad I'n Fenws). The edition states: "Melody and Welsh words by permission of Dr J. Llloyd Williams" - this is John Lloyd Williams (10 July 1854 – 15 November 1945)
• The edition also includes an English rhyming translation and states "English Translation by Steuart Wilson By Permission - this is Sir James Steuart Wilson (21 July 1889 – 18 December 1966)
• Gustav Holst died in 1934

I therefore believe that this can be uploaded to IMSLP in Canada as the last surviving composer/arranger/editor/librettist died before 1972. Is this correct?

In the US (for CPDL), this is more complicated as I do not know where exactly this edition was published or what the copyright status is.

• The British Library lists the publisher as "London : J. Curwen & Sons" and a "creation date" of "c1933"
• The US 1933 Catalog of Copyright Entries includes "My sweetheart's like Venus; Welsh folk song, melody and Welsh w J Lloyd Williams, English tr. Steuart Wilson, arr for mixed voices. © Nov. 3, 1933 ; E for. 32015; Gustav Holst. 22917"
• I can find no evidence of renewals in 1960 or 1961 in the relevant catalogs

I believe this would therefore be considered public domain in the US were it not for the URAA. Whether it comes under the URAA comes down to whether "The work was not first published in the United States, and, if first published in a foreign country, the first US publication took place within 30 days of that publication in a foreign country." If covered by the URAA, I believe the work would still be under US copyright until 2028 (1933+95). I presume the work was first published in the UK but am at a loss as to whether this work was ever published in the US and how that affects the US copyright status.

In the UK and most of the EU, I believe this work is copyright until 2036 (1966+70) as the translator, Steuart Wilson, died in 1966.

Can anyone advise on this, please?

Thanks!

Go ahead and upload it. Not sure why the original uploader "Phillip21" skipped this one on here.

Interesting, I wasn't aware those others are already on IMSLP. I'm not convinced they are actually part of a set called "12 Welsh Folk Songs". Each piece appears to have been published separately and does not make reference to any others.

Any thoughts on the US copyright status?

Hello,

What you have said copyright-wise in your original post is indeed correct. The 12 Welsh Folk Songs are catalogued under one H number, so they seem to be part of a set (even if the first edition makes no mention of belonging to a larger set of folksongs). Indeed, the translator to all 12 folksongs died in 1966 (all other contributors died in 1966 or earlier); therefore, the work is in the Canadian public domain. In life-plus-70 territories, such as the UK and EU, the work will only enter the public domain in 2037.

The work is only public domain in the US if it is not URAA-eligible, i.e. it was first published in the US, or that the first US publication took place within 30 days of first publication in a foreign country (legally called simultaneous publication). Since the copyright notice on the first page of each folksong does say "Copyright, U.S.A.: 1933 by Gustav Holst" and mentions an American location of publication (Germantown, Philadelphia), it is most likely that the work was simultaneously published in the US and UK.

Therefore, since there is no renewal registration for this work (as you have researched), it is most likely public domain in the US.

Regards,

My edition does not mention locations at the bottom of the first page - it simply has the Copyright USA:1933 Gustav Holst line. Mine is a more modern edition than the others on IMSLP but this appears to be only in that the old pricing has been removed and the Publishers details modernised.

That sounds like a reprint then.

Indeed. Does that affect uploading to IMSLP in any way? I've also located an earlier, near-identical edition and this one states "New York: G.Schirmer inc., Sole Agents for U.S.A." at the bottom.

In terms of creating a new score for CPDL, I'm thinking of including the following at the bottom and not applying the CPDL licence.

This work is Public Domain in the US and Canada
Not for distribution in the EU or UK before 2037

If the musical content of the reprinted edition is identical to the original edition (i.e. only publisher information has been amended/removed), which seems to be the case here, then the copyright status is unaffected.

If you are thinking of re-engraving the piece for uploading onto CPDL, you will still need to apply a CPDL or Creative Commons licence, even if the original work is in the public domain. This is because the new engraving is your original work and must be licensed for use before others can legally download and use it.

The advantage of licensing your engraving under a Creative Commons (CC) licence is that the edition can also be uploaded onto IMSLP as well as CPDL, should you wish to do so.

Thanks for all the information so far.

I'm not sure if I can apply a CPDL or Creative Commons licence to a work that is still under copyright in some areas. I wonder how best to create a re-engraving that is intended for free re-use but presumably can only be used in areas where the original work is now in the Public Domain.

Creative Commons (and possibly CPDL) licences can be applied to works which are still under copyright in certain territories; however, the licence will only have effect in areas where the work is in the public domain.

Having looked into this some more, I think the discussion is sadly moot. I believe copyright law in territories such as the UK prevents someone from uploading a copy of the score or from creating a new engraving. This is regardless of the location in which either is then published.

Even if the edition is not public domain in its country of origin, it can still be uploaded onto IMSLP. The British copyright law you are referring to only applies to the UK, I believe. It does not affect the copyright status of the work in other countries; the folk songs are still in the Canadian public domain regardless.