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Could I ask for help in determining the date of first publication of the following, so I can decide whether to upload;

David Popper (1843-1913)
Concert Polonaise Op.14
Simrock Volks-Ausgabe No.117
Plate No. 21304
No editor

When I looked up the Simrock plate number on IMSLP, it did not seem to be part of this series, or if it was seems much much later than I expected from looking the music. The data is extensive up to 1922 (plate 14522). After that there is only one entry for 1938 (plate 15291).

I do not know the original publisher of this piece, but around this opus number Popper was using Bartholf Senff (later Simrock) and Hofmeister to publish his works.

Thanks for any information

Have you compared the typesetting to several of Simrock's c.1890-1900 scores to check they were the first publisher? Simrock might have reprinted something originally published by someone else. You might be able to check the typesetting of several of the firms Popper's music was published by; Hofmeister/Senff/Rahter/etc. There are often house styles that will identify the publisher (or exclude one). A quick Google for "Simrock Volks Ausgabe" shows publication is almost certainly before 1923, so go ahead and upload it, and I'll take a look.

My guess, for what it's worth, is that the piece was initially published by Senff sometime in the 1880s, and one of two things happened when Simrock absorbed the firm of Senff in 1907: either Simrock may have used a separately numbered series of plate numbers for the acquisition of Senff's catalogue, or else the plate number is actually the original one allocated by Senff, and Simrock may have pragmatically let the plate number stand since it didn't clash with their own range (they were only up to 12,000 by 1907). Had Simrock been the first publisher I can't see a reason for them have giving it such a high plate number (unless someone in the type shop was being a silly bugger and reversed the first two digits).

I'm assuming then the actual score you have is a Simrock re-issue of the original publication, c. 1907. The only change from the original plate would presumably have been the removal of "Senff" and the addition of "Simrock".

That's my guess without having seen the thing!...

Regards, Philip

Thanks for the input. I will scan and upload for you to have a look at.

I have looked again in more detail following your helpful suggestions.

In this website (library.uncg.edu/depts/speccoll/cello/matzcon.html), by good fortune, is the following entry, confirming the original publication of this piece was by Bartholf Senff;

Popper, David, 1843-1913 - Polonaise de Concert pour Violoncello, op. 14 - Bartholf Senff - Leipzig/? - Cello Piece - plate #1304

And your hunch seems to be right as the plate number of the Simrock edition is 21304.

I uploaded a Prelude and Gavotte No.3 Op.27 by Popper in the last few days that was published by Bartholf Senff. So it is possible to compare them to see if the Concert Polonaise plates are similar to these Bartholf Senff plates. These pieces are quite close in date.

The Concert Polonaise has this at the bottom of the Simrock title page
Lith. Anst. C. G. Röder, G.m.b.H. Leipzig
And the Gavotte has this;
Lith. Anst. C. G. Röder, Leipzig
So it looks like they both have sets of plates were made by Roder’s. The titles are in a different style but the rest looks similar – but I am not an expert.

The Concert Polonaise also has 3 pages of Simrock adverts, and at the bottom is a reference to a new catalogue for 1921/2. So my Simrock copy was printed no earlier than 1922, and probably within a year or two after that.

The website mentioned above (sheet music collection of the cellist Rudolph Matz 1901- 1988) is very useful as it mentions a lot of plate numbers. It has these two entries;

Popper, David, 1843-1913 - Drei Stucke, op. 11 (Widmung, no. 1; Humoreske, no. 2; Mazurka I, no. 3) - Bartholf Senff - Leipzig/[18--?] - Cello Piece - plate #1256-1259

Popper, David, 1843-1913 - Zwei Stucke, op. 11, no. 1 & 2 (Widmung & Humoreske) - N. Simrock - Berlin/? - Cello Piece - plate #1256.1257.1258

A example of Simrock re-using Bartholf Senff plates without changing the plate numbers!

It also has this;

Boccherini, Luigi, 1743-1805 - Sonate No. 2, C dur - Grutzmacher, Friedrich (ed.) - N. Simrock - Berlin/? - Cello Sonata - plate #20893

As Grutzmacher’s dates are 1832-1903, this looks like a renumbered plate. And to prove it this website (http://www.svaf.se/enhorning/Cello.htm) has the following two references;
• BOCCHERINI. 6 Sonaten nr 3 (Grützmacher). B.Senff 894. 6+12s. Fol. 75
• BOCCHERINI. 6 Sonaten nr 4 (Grützmacher). B.Senff 895. 6+12s. Fol. 75
So if this is a sequence, sonata no.2 would have a Bartholf Senff plate 893, which would be renumbered to 20893.

So overall it is pretty conclusive that this is a reused and renumbered Bartholf Senff plate from about 1880, and as such in the public domain.

Hi Stephen,

The four digits of the matching Senff plate cited at UNCG indicates my hunch was mostly correct. Obviously Simrock made a decision to stamp a "2" in front of the Senff plates, where this was possible; if plate numbers are run together as some publishers did, then inserting the "2" against the successive plate numbers would have been too messy: the example you gave of Popper Op. 11, plates 1256.1257.1258 would fall into this category, since No.1 would have been stamped 1256.1257, and No.2 1256.1258 and while it would be easy to overstamp a 2 in front of 1256, it would just look messy for the secondary plate numbers.

The Polonaise can be marked V/V/V upon upload.

Best regards, Philip

Nice investigative work! We can add this info about Simrock's acquisition of the Senff catalog to the Simrock publisher page.