i have this wonderful quintet by august klughardt (already scanned for private use, so i don't ruin my sheet music when i write stuff down).
He died in 1905 or something, so composerwise everything should be fine, but where can i find out when the editing took place? it says "reprinted in 2000", but that's not of any concern - regarding copyrights, is it?
i have tons of other pieces i would love to provide to the community, but likewise i find it hard to find out when they were published (publishers copyright ...?)
also: i'm located in germany: do the same rules apply over here? (e.g. 30 years protection for the publisher)
thanks a bunch in advance.
and if everything is fine i'll soon upload the music
greets
tilmaen
almost forgot to add this: the edition i have is "Zimmermann - Frankfurt" ZM 13112
As mentioned: it doesn't say anywhere who editied the work or when it was published, also no plate numbers are shown :-/
on the last page it only says ""PIROL" Notendruckerei, Minden"
While the work itself is out of copyright, there may very well be rights associated with this edition, depending on a variety of factors.
However, to me the broader concern is an ethical one. Zimmermann (http://www.zimmermann-frankfurt.de) went to the trouble of publishing this edition (which may be a reprint, I haven't looked at it), and have the decency to keep it readily available for a reasonable price (15 Euros for the parts). Even if it were legal to scan their edition, why would we want to monetarily punish a publishing company that's doing good work by making available this (relatively) obscure music, and other pieces like it? That will only serve to make them less likely to publish and make available more works like this in the future. In fact, they've been making this title available since at least the 70s, and it's undergone a couple of corrections (the most recent in 2000). It seems to me that this kind of publishing should be rewarded. I refuse to believe that their sales of Klughardt wind quintets are keeping the owners of Zimmermann in Mercedes.
The important question is whether this Zimmermann score is an actual new edition or simply a reprint of a 19th century score. There is no copyright at all in a reprint - even if it came off the press yesterday. A new edition, by contrast, will be protected for at least 25 years from the date of its original publication.
PIROL Notendruckerei is (or was) a print-shop located in Minden who specialized in printing music. There are lots of Breitkopf scores printed by them as well. I think you should post it and let our copyright review team take a look. All of us know how to tell a reprint from a new edition. We're now down to less than 800 scores from the big backlog, so it should go pretty fast.
Here's where I'll politely disagree with Carolus (which is a rarity, but there you have it).
Whether or not the Zimmermann is under copyright is irrelevant to the point of my post. I know it's what tilmaen was asking, but not the bigger picture I was addressing. This is a printing readily available at a reasonable price. Is it ethical to take something right off the press and digitize it just because it may be legal to do so? It might be one thing to scan from the original 19th century score/parts (which even we don't have). I'm just not a fan of pirating from readily available works when there are so many things not currently available in any state for musicians to buy or download.
@jfarringon: you're making a legit point. it certainly is cool that zimmermann is publishing all this stuff that we may otherweise not be able to access as easily.
however: would it make that big a difference - ethically- to go to the library, get the original edition and scan that? Klughardt for one is a very popular work for wind quintets - if it weren't for zimmermann some other publisher would surely jump in and publish it.
you could also argue that it would be inethical to upload some beethoven score because baerenreiter (e.g.) could use the money they're missing out on because it's availible here, to publish works that are less common.
If you use a work by Klughardt who died 1902 and in whose works you have no copyrights whatsoever and publish it to make some money: well what gives them the "right" to make money off klughardt? though - you're right -certainly not a lot of money. but as we say in germany: many a little makes a mickle.
well, anyways: i'll leave it up to the IMSLP community to decide whether or not they want this online or not.
JFarrington raises a question which has come to the fore several times since the advent of scanning and the easy conversion to PDF format. Does posting a score like this put a publisher like Zimmermann out of business - or make it less likely they will keep a composer like Klughardt in print?
The answer is not always very easy to discern. One the one hand, I can see the argument that placing a Klughardt work on IMSLP might damage potential sales for Zimmermann (now Peters) and for a reprint house who might make it available. That was the crux of the argument made by Universal last fall when they tried to shut down IMSLP. However, I think a very powerful counter-argument could be made (and there is actually some evidence of this in the book world) that placing such a scan on IMSLP would actually increase Peters' sales of this title. This is something that UE's minions never could seem to wrap their heads around when they were hanging out here last fall.
Here are some factors in particular that might work in favor of this more positive scenario for a publisher:
1. Printing out dozens of pages, usually single-sided, then figuring out a way to bind them in a useable manner is not as easy as it might seem to be at first. In fact, if one's time is worth anything at all, it is usually much cheaper to purchase a printed copy than to manufacture one yourself. The piano-score is evidently 44 pages. While not as daunting as an operatic vocal score of 300-400 pages, it can still be an annoyance - even for someone as experienced as I am in printing and binding scores and parts of all types.
2. IMSLP now includes direct links to purchase printed copies at both Amazon and Sheet Music Plus. In case of the title in question, which is apparently the Quintet, Op.79, it is presently available at SMP from both Peters (who now owns Zimmermann) and Alfred (Kalmus Classic Series). The fact that Alfred has reprinted it means it must have some level of popularity - as well as essentially proving its public domain status in the USA. Although there are not a great number of such links yet (they are only for the most heavily-visited pages at present), more are being added all the time.
3. Since IMSLP has a fairly significant amount of traffic, the odds are improved that a prospective performer (and purchaser) might be willing to seriously consider the work of a lesser-known composer like Klughardt than would be the case if they had to track it down via a brick-and-mortar music store, make calls to knowledgeable librarians, etc. Instead, someone interested in exploring the Klughardt piece can simply download the PDF and look it over thoroughly - maybe even to play through a section to hear what it actually sounds like. The end result: Klughardt wins another fan and Peters and Alfred sell more scores. The sheer ease and convenience of access actually increases the odds of a work like this getting more exposure.
@perlnerd666: what do you mean by SMA?
i'm still unsure whether it would be legal to upload this piece or not. i just don't wanna get myself and/or IMSLP in trouble because of copyright infringements. On the score it says "Copying or reproduction by other means is strictly prohibited" (in german). however: if the original edition is old enough that Logo/Warning is of no importance, is it?
I agree entirely that it's not clear cut in many instances. And there are all kinds of reasons to upload scores that are still available for scale. Maybe all you need is the flute part because a member of your quintet lost theirs. You can't buy just a part even if you wanted to. Maybe you have a copy on order, but you want to start rehearsing before it arrives. Maybe you just want to read through a work before deciding to purchase a copy. Most of the time a published copy will have added value to the performer in the way of clearer printing, paper larger than 8.5x11 or A4, etc. So I can see all sorts of reasons to upload music to IMSLP--hey, I'm a big champion of it!
And yes, I buy into the argument that making people aware of music they might not have known before will ultimately benefit the publishing industry. But I have seen a number of folks on these forums suggest purchasing works currently available for sale (e.g. from Dover or Orchestra Musician) specifically for the purpose of then scanning (or downloading from the CDROM) and putting on IMSLP. That's the kind of thing that bothers me. I'm not suggesting that tilmaen was doing that, just that I've read that kind of thing here.
But I have seen a number of folks on these forums suggest purchasing works currently available for sale (e.g. from Dover or Orchestra Musician) specifically for the purpose of then scanning (or downloading from the CDROM) and putting on IMSLP.
Why? I buy the scores of music that I want to spend time studying or reading. If I just want to listen to a piece and having the score would be helpful would you really expect me to fork out AU$30 for a one off? Most people don't use the scores in ways which are damaging publishers.
A lot of illegal pirates (say movies) (note: certainly not most), are not losing money for their copyright holders as a lot of the people who download them would not spend the money buying it eitherway.
I would never, ever bother to buy say... A.I. (the movie). If I downloaded it because someone told me to watch it (when I could go to their house and watch it), are the copyright holder's losing money?
If people were downloading these scores for productions, or similar then that may be unethical. But a majority are certainly not doing that.
On the other hand, with things like CDSM/OM, where they're claiming false copyright, I have no qualms whatsoever about handing out their parts to an orchestra.
While a music company may reprint a public domain score, no one is preventing another music company from reprinting the same score. Is the 2nd company infringing on the sales possibilities of the 1st one?
The only possible difference between that 2nd company's reprint and IMSLP's holding a scan of either reprint (besides the fact that the print companies charge money) is that the 2nd company might have had access to an actual exemplar of the edition that is reprinted. Then again, maybe not.
There is a matter of ethics involved in the following kind of situation, however: Earlier this year I was asked to supply a preface for a reprint of one of Cui's works to be issued by a German publisher. At first I agreed, but very quickly wrote back to decline. The reason? I had already uploaded that same work, same edition, to IMSLP before the shutdown, so I told the publisher that the upcoming revival of IMSLP would create a conflict of interest with my writing a preface for their reprint.
"A libretto, a libretto, my kingdom for a libretto!" -- Cesar Cui (letter to Stasov, Feb. 20, 1877)
The score for Kalinnikov's Symphony No. 1 just posted by Lyle is a very good example of what he's talking about. Jurgenson issued the score in 1900. It was reprinted by Muzgiz in 1931. Kalmus then obtained a copy of the Muzgiz reprint, which was in turn reprinted by them. (The first crook doesn't have a chance, as the saying goes.)
Lyle, if you wish to provide a preface in the future for the company (I think I know who you're talking about), we'd be happy to put a link to the score on Sheet Music Plus or Amazon - assuming they are sold on SMP or Amazon.) As I mentioned above, printing out a score yourself is not really saving you any money - especially for those over 50 pages or so.
