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This is a request for general information -- this piece is still under copyright, but I'm interested in the specifics. Apparently the copyright holder is Bruch's daughter? Could someone give me more information on this, and what her dates were?

Also, if a copyright holder is not the composer himself, but a relative of the composer, is the term the same as a composer (i.e. 50, 70, 95 years, etc.), or is it like editors of urtext editions (20, 25, 30, etc.)?

Thank you.

I need to clarify this. The piano reduction is on IMSLP, but what I am looking for is the orchestral score and parts -- these are still rental only, apparently because they are still under copyright. I am interested in researching when this copyright expires.

The work could be under copyright in Canada if first published less than 50 years ago. In the EU, it could be under copyright if first published less than 25 years ago. Since Bruch died more than 70 years ago, his unpublished works are now public domain in the USA. However, if first published between 1923-2002, they could be copyright there as well. Also, the fact that the work is only available on rental does not necessarily mean it is under copyright.

I guess "copyright-holder" means the relative of a composer who can give permission for rearrangments etc. until the copyright expires (see the R.Strauss estate that still tries to block public performance of unauthorized arrangments in europe)...
The double concerto was published in 1942, so copyright in Europe expired after 25 years and that's the reason the Bavarian State Library put the Piano-Reduction online (and this is the copy at IMSLP)

Re: score and orchestral parts:
Sometimes use of rental material can be easily circumvented by going directly to the source, obtaining copies of the composers manuscripts from a library and their permission to use it for a public performance. Only I fear, its not possible in this case anymore, since Bruch's works were housed in the "Kölner Stadtarchiv", which collapsed at the beginning of March, destroying much of its holdings.

My own question related to this topic:
Does copyright law apply to rental material, which may even have a notice "private property, not for sale" next to the publishers name on it? Or may you be liable for breach of contract, if you copy rented material and use it after the copyright of the composer has expired?

Let me explain the specific problem, this might help explain what I need.

I work for a university music department, but also deal with a lot of high school musicians who audition for concerto competitions. Where we are, there are several of these a year, but generally the university (and orchestras) don't have budget, so we require parts to be available within the country.

Nobody is willing to rent concertos for this type of concert -- apart from lack of money for student concerts, a high student last year had parents who were willing to pay the rental, but afterwards discovered that by the time they paid postage back and forth, etc., they were charged at least half again as much as it would have cost to purchase a whole set (Hue, Fantaisie for flute and orchestra). I have since purchased this set for my university library.

My policy is that I will buy what is available to buy.

re: the Bruch parts.
I can't even find an orchestral score available to purchase. I have looked on WorldCat to see what has been published, and all I can find are piano reductions. If I could find an orchestral score, provided copyright has expired (we are life +50), I would be willing to do a typeset of the parts. However, I can't find any orchestral scores or parts at all.

Even the Boosey & Hawkes website just tells me that rental parts aren't available in this country, but doesn't say what company publishes the parts, so I can't check a company website to see if a score is available.

A symphony orchestra librarian told me that Bruch's daughter holds (or held) the copyright. I don't know if this is true, and can't find anything to confirm it. If it is confirmed, the next step is that I found on the internet that she died in 1963, so the issue of whether a relative gets the full 70 (or 50 or whatever) years is relevant.

And Kalliwoda's question about use of photocopied scores of rental material would also be helpful (if it is legal and if I can find somebody with one).

Anything anyone can find would help me a lot.

Thanks in advance.

This is an interesting case. The reduction was first published in 1942, without a copyright notice. Since the German copyright (under Editio Princeps) expired in 1968, it would not have been eligible for "restoration" in the USA. So, we've established first publication of the work itself as taking place in 1942, in the form of the composer's reduction for clarinet, viola and piano. Under some countries' legal definition of publication, all versions of a particular work in existence are considered to be published when first publication of any version takes place. Thus, when the composer's reduction for clarinet, viola and piano was published in 1942, the orchestral score (from which it was derived) was likewise legally published.

Here is the possible status for the three major copyright rules used by this site (Canada and other 50pma territories, the USA, EU and other 70pma territories)

1. The copyright expired for Canada and 50pma countries expired in 1993 at latest (50 years after first publication - posthumously published). The knotty question with regard to Canada (and other 50pma countries) is whether the orchestral score was considered to be published simultaneously with the reduction.

2. The work was injected into the USA public domain upon publication without a notice in 1942. The USA doctrine of publication is that mentioned above: All extant versions (by the composer) were simultaneously published in 1942 with the issue of the piano reduction. Even if one takes the (very dubious) position that the orchestral score was somehow still legally "unpublished" after 1942, the fact that Bruch died in 1920 means that even his truly unpublished manuscripts entered the USA public domain on 1/1/2003.

3. Most 70pma countries employ the Editio Princeps rubric (25 years after publication) for posthumously published works. The UK is the big exception here, because of a long transitional provision dealing with unpublished works, which were in perpetual copyright (as long as they remained unpublished) under English common law. The work could very well be protected in the UK. Under Editio Princeps, the work entered the public domain in 1968 in most of the EU. As with Canada, the difficult question here is is whether the orchestral score was considered to be published simultaneously with the reduction.

The crucial question here is whether the orchestral score is counted as an unpublished work, or if it was considered as being published with the issue of the derivative piano reduction in 1942. Even though this issue is fairly settled in the USA, it's not yet been definitively dealt with by the Supreme Court. Other countries have different definitions of what constitutes "publication." If the work has been recorded (which I am fairly certain is the case), the odds are high that it is legally "published." If the first recording was more than 50 years ago, the odds are very high that even the orchestral score is free in Canada and other 50pma countries. If the first recording was more than 25 years ago, the odds are high that the work is free in most of the EU and other 70pma countries. Oddly, the release of a commercial recording does not constitute publication of the work in the USA, but only of the recording itself.

BTW, the "life-plus" copyright terms apply only to the author (who died in 1920), not to his children or other heirs. Posthumously published works are typically accorded a set term of publication-plus-xx years. It's 50 years in Canada, 25 years in most of the EU. The odds are extremely high that the work is free in the USA, in whatever form.

The score has to have been published, since Boosey offers the set for rental. However, since the website just says it's not available for rental in my country, I can't see the publisher name. Perhaps someone else could look this up so we can try to get a date?

The earliest LP I can find on WorldCat is 1975, Grenadilla Records in New York.

This would make it definitely PD in the EU, but I'm still looking for other recordings, and of course, information on the orchestral score that comes with the rental set.

According the The Cambridge Companion to the Clarinet, edited by Colin Lawson (1999: Cambridge University Press, p.97-8), the "Double Concerto was lost, then found again after the composer's death, and given its first performance in 1940 by Alfred Burkner with Reinhard Wolf (viola) and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra."

Our copyright law seems to view a public performance of a work as constituting publication, although I need to read it more carefully to be sure.

Would this help the Canadian or UK situation? If public performance constitutes publication in Canada, then the work was PD as of 1991.

Probably not with the UK. It's most likely free in Canada, though. If you manage to obtain a full score, I would most likely tag it as OK for Canada and the USA. I believe the UK's transitional provisions would result in a term for 70 years after publication. I have no idea of whether performance or recording constitutes publication, or if they're stricter and limit the definition to printing and distribution for sale.

It took some time to get more info, here it is:

There is a new edition by Edition Litolff (Peters) from 2008, again with the orchestral material rental only. I would see this as additional evidence, that this work is public domain in Europe. Strangely, even the Peters edition is not listed on their US-site, only on the German site. Maybe you should inquire directly with both Peters and Boosey, what is blocking availability in the US.

Seems there has never been an orchestral score or parts for sale, at least there is nothing in the online catalogues (worldcat, but also www.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/kvk.html). And nothing in the card catalogs of the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek.
Surprisingly, there seems to be another possibility, as I found an entry at the BDLO (German Society of Amateur Orchestras) that they have the material http://www.bdlo.de/katalog/nk_details.p ... &kk=BrucJZ. I have no idea who the publisher is. Since the BDLO supplies photocopies from its archive to member orchestras, you may be able to get them too, if this entry is correct. Inquire with Dr. Joachim Conradi zentralbibliothek@bdlo.de.

Another option: The manuscript score is now in the Music Dept, Univ of Cologne (not in the collapsed Stadtarchiv!)
see http://www.uni-protokolle.de/nachrichten/id/66995/ -
http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/muwi/o ... about.html has contact info, you could inquire if they can supply you with copies or a scan of the score and how much that would cost - usually just the cost of the copies, but frequently libraries in germany require that you promise in writing not to pass these copies on to others without permission and charge some fees for commercial use - public performances from newly computerset parts at your university should be ok.

This is so helpful, thank you very, very much!!

steltz wrote:This is so helpful, thank you very, very much!!

Having just joined the forum I'm unsure whether my previous message was received. I am a viola player in an amateur orchestra and wondered whether you had been able to locate a score and parts for the Bruch Double Concerto for clarinet and viola? I'm also interested in the Bruch Romance for viola and orchestra. It would be helpful to know the orchestration for the two pieces.
Thank you.

I have emailed Joachim Conradi of the German Society of Amateur Orchestras, but have not had any response.

I will send him another email in the coming week, failing a response to which, i will try the University of Cologne. I decided to try Mr. Conradi first, since his Society seems to have parts, and the University of Cologne has only the score.

Sorry that I have no more information at the moment, but I am going as fast as I can.

Regarding the BDLO (German Society of Amateur Orchestras):
They supply copies only to member orchestras or members of jeneusse musicale, but exceptions are made to other parties if the material cannot be obtained in another way - unfortunately, the university orchestra I organise is not a member.
Akademisches Orchester Berlin (they are a member) played the Bruch in 2004, but they don't have copies in their archive.
If there is no response, I could inquire in german - just let me know.

As for the Romanze, too bad - I just played it (oboe) a few months ago here in Berlin, copies from the BDLO...
If you want to find out about instrumentation of both works, you can peruse the "Notenkatalog" of the BDLO, just click forward from the link in my earlier post and you will find the Romanze. Or go to http://www.bdlo.de/katalog/komponisten.php

Thanks for the link. The orchestration is 2/2/2/2 4/2/0/0 1, meaning: 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 4 horns, 2 trumpets, timpani, strings.

It has been over a week since I sent the email, so would you mind asking in German, Kalliwoda? It would be much appreciated! Thanks in advance.