Listing works under the original name

[Operalala]

Can I make a suggestion that works be listed under their original-language names? In particular, Bach, where everything seems to be in English - just now it took me a bit of sleuthing to find Johannes-Passion under 'S' in the Bach category - and doing a search for Johannes + Passion doesn't bring up the work at all.
Operalala

[pml]

Suggestion noted.

This is a bit of a can o' worms, I'm afraid, since the Zeitgeist hasn't moved sufficiently apace that English speakers everywhere always refer to original language titles in a consistent manner, even with just one composer's works or one genre under consideration: I for one refer colloquially in speech to "The Marriage of Figaro" and "The Magic Flute", but will normally put them down in writing as "Le nozze di Figaro" and "Die Zauberflöte"; on the other hand, I never use any of the English alternatives for "Così fan tutte", and "Don Giovanni" is simpler than "Il dissoluto punito..."

Anyway. There is supposed to be a type of page to support this ambiguity, however there are only two actual implementations on the Wiki at present:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Language_Redirects

The two scores being:
The Four Seasons (Vivaldi, Antonio) which redirects to Le Quattro Stagioni;

and the rather weird one of:

Gymnopedies (Debussy, Claude) which double-redirects to 3 Gymnopédies (Satie, Erik)...

The problem with these redirect pages however, is that they are of next to no use – they don't appear as options for the linguistically challenged on the composer's works pages.

Perhaps this should be listed as a "Bug". :-)

Regards, Philip

[Operalala]

I think this project differs from other Wiki's in that it will be international in scope - we shouldn't really give much weight to one language's usage, other than the composer's own. I expect users from Russia to Argentina will look for Bach works first under a likely German name, rather than English. And even as a native English speaker I had to search the Bach category for "Passion" before finding Johannespassion alphabetized under "St.".
Operalala

[pml]

Hello good Tralala,

Don't get me wrong: I'm not for one moment suggesting that the Johannes-Passion should be entitled the St John! Just that at the moment this shortcoming of the website falls into the category of "anomaly", as well as "a bug that needs fixing", rather than a wilful or deliberate attempt to make things awkward.

The internationalisation of the website is not something I personally can make a huge mark on, and I doubt its Feldmahler's intention that we should have separate wikis catering to various languages, e.g. en.imslp.org = English IMSLP, de.imslp.org = German IMSLP, fr.imslp.org = French IMSLP (though presumably the Francophiles would insist on re-arranging the letters and the title to read PBPMI: Projet de Bibliotheque Partitions Musicale Internationale!) ;-)

I'm surprised we haven't seen more article titles in non-Romanic scripts such as Cyrillic or one or more of the Asian languages. We have seen some uploads. :-)

Hmm. The "rule" to use the composer's own language will throw up exceptions anyway, since composers often write in non-native languages. It would seem pointless to always insist on German titles for Italian operas composed by a German... Again, thinking of certain Mozart works: my mind easily recalls "Die Hochzeit..." in the case of Figaro, whereas for "Così fan tutte", I just go blank... :-)

Regards, Philip

[reinhold]

Hmm. The "rule" to use the composer's own language will throw up exceptions anyway, since composers often write in non-native languages. It would seem pointless to always insist on German titles for Italian operas composed by a German... Again, thinking of certain Mozart works: my mind easily recalls "Die Hochzeit..." in the case of Figaro, whereas for "Così fan tutte", I just go blank...

I think it should simply be the language of the original publication (per piece, not per composer!). E.g. most Händel works would be published under their original English name, since they were originally published in English, even though Händel was German. Similarly, Mozart operas in Italian language would use the Italian name, while German operas would use the German title.

[Peter]

It's not that easy. it gets more complicated when using generic genre names. Shall we list Sonata per pianoforte, Sonate pour piano or Piano Sonata? Quintet for piano and strings or Piano quintet? Sonate pour piano accompagnée par violon et violoncelle or piano trio?

[neil_mcgowan]

I wish it were that simple, even with Handel. Although his works were published in England, they were simultaneously published in Germany (where they were performed in his absence, mostly in Hamburg). But he although he published his operas under their Italian titles, this doesn't prevent Brits from calling GIULIO CESARE IN EGITTO by the title JULIUS CAESAR, or using the English title XERXES for the opera SERSE.

Almost certainly the original title would be best - could any translated titles be parenthesised after it? Viz SERSE ("XERXES")