IMSLP Forums

I noticed someone actually changed a fair number of listings like String Quartet No. 15 (with a space after the period) to String Quartet No.15 (no space) recently. The same principle applies to Op., various Catalog numbers, etc. I'd be interested to know:

a) which is the correct way to handle this issue according to LC or BL cataloging guidelines;

b) if how this is done makes any difference in whether a listing of all 32 Beethoven Sonatas or 41 Mozart Symphonies appear in the correct numeric order (instead of No. 10 coming after 1 and before 2);

c) if bothering with such details even matters as far as ease of use for a visitor coming to IMSLP for the first time (or even if that should necessarily be the guiding principle).

Of course that also raises related questions about whether titles should be listed in the original language or if (and when) generic titles should be used! Gilbertdh, one of our newer members here is an actual librarian so I'll be interested in his take on all this. As far as how it's handled in actual published scores, I've seen few if any where as space was not used after the period in No. or Op. That doesn't mean that we necessarily should do it that way here, though, especially if there is some technical reason why the opposite would work better.

This is actually in the IMSLP Manual of Style... and the "correct" way is with no space Though this is really not a big deal.

A quick look though the catalog of the local library reveals usage of "opus x", "Opus x", "op. x", "Op. x" and even rarely "Oeuvre x". Interestingly enough all of them have spaces, but I think it does show how there does not seem to be any regularity. On the other hand, neither am I a librarian

The issue about languages is also in the Manual of Style. I've been planning to add a title translation feature to the wiki, so that the titles can be internationalized, but I'm afraid of the potential inadvertent abuse of it, because there are some titles that are just better left untranslated (i.e. better known untranslated). And so I've been unable to find a way around this as of yet... but ya, the temporary guideline for this is in the Manual of Style

OK, I read the style manual. Generally, I think the rule in LC is that Op. and No. are supposed to be followed by a space. (Which is not to say that this is always followed by catalogers!) This probably is derived from publisher's usage in actual printed scores. The reason I ask is that my typing habit is to put the space, so I'll try to remember not to when adding things to IMSLP.

As for original languages, the only partial exception to the transliteration rule for Russian might be where one encounters pre-1917 scores. Jurgenson, Belaieff, Bessel, and Gutheil often published works with titles in both Russian and French (less often in Russian and German). Take the titles of the three great Tchaikovsky ballets as a perfect example: In (transliterated) Russian they are Lebedinoe Ozero, Op. 20; Spiashchaia Krasavitsa, Op. 66; and Shchelkunchik, Op. 71. Jurgenson issued all three with French titles as well, though (Le Lac des Cygnes, La Belle au Bois Dormant, and Casse Noisette), which are probably best known in the English-speaking world as Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty, and The Nutcracker. I'm willing to bet that there are a number of users who would get confused if those titles were to be changed to transliterated Russian! Just to add to the overall fun, the composer of the three ballets above spelled his own name "Tschaikowsky" (as it's spelled in both German and French) when he used Latin letters. (I got to hold a score of the Piano Trio, Op. 50 that was used at the Carnegie Hall performance in 1891 bearing his autograph one time!)

I can't say that I envy either music librarians or Wiki-programmers in dealing with this sort of stuff!!

Carolus wrote:OK, I read the style manual. Generally, I think the rule in LC is that Op. and No. are supposed to be followed by a space. (Which is not to say that this is always followed by catalogers!) This probably is derived from publisher's usage in actual printed scores. The reason I ask is that my typing habit is to put the space, so I'll try to remember not to when adding things to IMSLP.

It really is not a big deal... I won't fret if I forgot about it now and then (in fact, before I wrote the Manual of Style I sometimes put a space just to be consistent with the rest of the composer category, if the titles in that category generally have a space). Though, it may be good to get it right when sorting is an issue (either with or without space), but otherwise it really is a minor problem

As for original languages, the only partial exception to the transliteration rule for Russian might be where one encounters pre-1917 scores. Jurgenson, Belaieff, Bessel, and Gutheil often published works with titles in both Russian and French (less often in Russian and German). Take the titles of the three great Tchaikovsky ballets as a perfect example: In (transliterated) Russian they are Lebedinoe Ozero, Op. 20; Spiashchaia Krasavitsa, Op. 66; and Shchelkunchik, Op. 71. Jurgenson issued all three with French titles as well, though (Le Lac des Cygnes, La Belle au Bois Dormant, and Casse Noisette), which are probably best known in the English-speaking world as Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty, and The Nutcracker. I'm willing to bet that there are a number of users who would get confused if those titles were to be changed to transliterated Russian! Just to add to the overall fun, the composer of the three ballets above spelled his own name "Tschaikowsky" (as it's spelled in both German and French) when he used Latin letters. (I got to hold a score of the Piano Trio, Op. 50 that was used at the Carnegie Hall performance in 1891 bearing his autograph one time!)

I can't say that I envy either music librarians or Wiki-programmers in dealing with this sort of stuff!!

Me neither... me neither

Speaking of which... this problem is not entirely unheard of even right now on IMSLP... the title of Vivaldi's Four Seasons has caused enough confusion for several people to attempt to create a duplicate work page under another name...

imslp wrote:... this problem is not entirely unheard of even right now on IMSLP... the title of Vivaldi's Four Seasons has caused enough confusion for several people to attempt to create a duplicate work page under another name...

How about using redirects? It seems to me that the only (minor) inconvenient is that if we categorize them, the counter on the category page doesn't match the actual number of entries (since the redirects are counted, too; unless there is a way of avoiding it, but I'm not aware of any).

BTW, a redirect page can include category tags, so Il quattro stagioni/The Four Seasons may each be made to appear in the list for Vivaldi. This principle can work for any work (and there are a large number) that are known by a miscellany of titles.

Regards, PML

I've thought about using redirects (with category tags), but the reason I haven't said anything is that I'm not sure I want all the language translations of all the titles in the same category... it'd be fine for one or two, but if we start enabling it globally I'm afraid that it'd make the categories near impossible to browse...

All the language translations most certainly not - to do that, we would need language specific categorization, but I suppose that it would be highly nontrivial to add this feature to Mediawiki. But how about original language ("Le Quattro Stagioni") redirecting to English title ("The Four Seasons"), or vice versa?

Leonard Vertighel wrote:All the language translations most certainly not - to do that, we would need language specific categorization, but I suppose that it would be highly nontrivial to add this feature to Mediawiki. But how about original language ("Le Quattro Stagioni") redirecting to English title ("The Four Seasons"), or vice versa?

All right... you win You can create these redirect pages for very specific work pages. I've created a template (Template:LangRedirect) that you can use for this. But if this gets out of hand, I reserve the right to pull the plug, agreed?