Telemann TWV 40: "102-107"

[Beagle]

RE webpage:
http://imslp.org/wiki/6_Sonatas,_TWV_40 ... Philipp%29

Permit me a small but significant quibble:
This is the "2 Recorders" version of TWV 40:101-106 for 2 flutes or violins*; cf key signatures. It cannot be referenced as "102-107" but perhaps as "101.1-106.1" (my system).
-SHG
_______________
* http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... 8465,d.cWc

[steltz]

Thanks for bringing that to our attention. I'm the one who moved the page, and I took it as correct the "TWV 40:102-107" that was originally put in the Work Info by Csakan-2011. I should have checked with Grove Music before changing the title, but I will correct it in the title, and also the General Information. However, I'm finding another oddity in this page. Grove lists the works as:

"Sonates sans basse (G, D, A, e, b, E), 2 fl/vn/rec (Hamburg, 1727), 40:101–6"

and the keys as given on the work page are F, Bb, C, g, d, G.

I know that recorder works were frequently transposed, but the work page is supposed to give original keys.

Unless there are other objections, I should give the keys as given in Grove.

[Beagle]

Hello steltz,

I also see "Sonates sans basse (G, D, A, e, b, E), 2 fl/vn/rec (Hamburg, 1727), 40:101–6; T viii" in Grove on-line.
I had a careful look at the IMSPL 1st ed. and the signatures appear to agree with Grove (the 1726-style signatures look like a step up from ours: A looks like B, E looks like F#...).

What is the "works page" where you see "F, Bb, C, g, d, G"? Those are the keys which I see on imspl in General Information as "Recorder key" (not a transcription): http://imslp.org/wiki/6_Sonatas_for_2_F ... Philipp%29

In brief: what is the source for "F, Bb, C, g, d, G"?

stefenbeagle

[steltz]

What is the "works page" where you see "F, Bb, C, g, d, G"?

Ah, I see now, we have two different work pages that should probably be combined! Look at 6 Sonatas, TWV 40:101-106 (Telemann, Georg Philipp) vs. 6 Sonatas for 2 Flutes, TWV 40:101-106 ... g Philipp).

The second IMSLP work page gives a chart for both sets of keys.

I will just double check that they are the same sonatas, and if so, I will move Csakan-2011's typeset to the more complete workpage. Then the less complete page can be deleted.

[steltz]

Checked, moved, and deleted.

There still is a bit of work to be done on this page, though. I'm not quite sure why Knuth's, Classens', and Falloni's recorder typesets are in the arrangements tab . . .

Perhaps they need to be moved to the main tab?

[Notenschreiber]

I think one should follow the Urtext edition of Bärenreiter, which coinsides with the official Telemann Gesamtausgabe. Here the sonatas are given as follows,
from TWV 40:1-6: G e D h A E, with an ascending number of sharps. According to the preface of the edition this is not accidential, but a consequence of
the fact, that the 6 sonatas constitute a cycle of works. The ordering of the first edition is then 40.3, 40.1, 40.5, 40.2, 40.4, 40.6.

[Notenschreiber]

I the meantime a realized, that the numbers of the Bärenreiter edition has not been accepted bei TWV, i made a remark for the different meanings
of the numbers on the workpage of TWV 101-106.

[Feduol]

steltz wrote:
I'm not quite sure why Knuth's, Classens', and Falloni's recorder typesets are in the arrangements tab . . .
Perhaps they need to be moved to the main tab?

I don't think so. Once these editions have been modifying the original edition (transposing them by modifying the clef), I think that they should remain in "Arrangements and Transcriptions" tab. Even the Csakan-2011's editions have to be moved there.

[Notenschreiber]

I don´t think, that Knuth´s and Csakan´s edition are arrangements, Telemann himself suggested this transposition in his preface and mentioned the keys in the sheet music.
Knuth´s recorder edition should be deleted under the arrangement tab, it doen´s make sense to have it twice, anyway.
Classens edition is TWV 40:102, not 103, in F major as the other recorder editions of TWV 40:102.

[Feduol]

Hi Notenschreiber, I also don't see Knuth's and Csakan's editions are arrangements, as you said the recorder version is mentioned in the preface. But I think that these editions are transcriptions, since they modified the original recorder G1 clef for a G2 one. I know that it's a very small editorial intervention, but I am seeing it, in strictly sense, as one transcription.

I'll be splitting these sonatas and creating separate pages for them in the next days.

Another issue. Don't you think that, since the pieces are intentioned to flutes, violins and/or recorders, the page name would be only "6 Sonatas" instead "6 Sonatas for 2 Flutes"?

[Notenschreiber]

To use modern clefs is not a transcription, i think, but only an adaption of modern notation. (Telemann notated the flute/violin version in the usual G clef (for example in D major for sonata 1), the recorder version in french violin clef (for example in F major for sonata 1)). I think, he did this only for a very convinient transposition.
By the way, we had a lot of new editions (from graupner cantatas for example), all with modern clefs instead of the old ones, but nobody had the idea to put them under the "arrangements and transcription" tab. Or compare old and new Bach editions.

I agree with your proposal to name the workpage just "6 sonatas".

[steltz]

I don't believe they should go on separate pages. The page is small enough that it is feasible for all of it to be on one page, and if they are all on separate pages then there has to be links back to the main page, which is unnecessarily fussy unless a page has so many editions that it is itself unnecessarily unwieldy. However, I agree with the deletion of "flutes". And Notenschreiber is right, clefs are an editorial issue, not an arrangement issue. The original notes are not altered in any way, so there is no arranging or transcribing involved.

Please don't split the pages.

[Feduol]

Understood. I was thinking in the very strict sense of the term transcription. As you said, Notenschreiber, Graupner's cantatas and another hundreds more of Baroque (and earlier) modern editions are a good example for don't move these sonatas to transcriptions tab.

Becky, I won't split the pages. I've moved the title to "6 Sonatas, TWV 40:101-106" and put the files in the corresponding tabs.

[steltz]

That looks much better, thanks.

[Carolus]

That was a somewhat complicated case because Telemann himself made the instrumentation so flexible. Transposing and changing clefs doesn't meet the criteria of "arrangement" we use here, so I changed Knuth and the Mutopia "arrangers" to "editors". At any rate, the table below is pretty useful to anyone wanting to download something. Good work.