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OK, now that I've worked out how to upload, I'll get back onto the topic of copyright. Everywhere I look, there seem to be old Eulenburg pocket scores coming out of the woodwork.

Let me see if I have this straight.
In England there is this rule about "typographical arrangement." Does that mean that if the Eulenburg score was printed in England, and the editor is not named, it only gets 25 years before it enters the public domain?

What about if the editor is named?
Or the foreword has a name and date but the score itself has no date or copyright notice?
Or if it is printed in Germany or Switzerland?

I'm assuming of course that the composer has been dead for well over 70 years - all the music that I tend to collect is usually baroque to romantic, the Reger being an exception.)

I managed to submit the Reger String Trio and I'm not in prison yet. I'll list what I've got yet to scan and see if I can work it out...
(I'll list them by edition number and put my guess in brackets as to whether it's PD.)

Eulenburg No. 5 (Leipzig) - Cherubini String Quartet in E flat. No date, no editor and no copyright notice anywhere. Looks old. (This one has "public domain" written all over it.)

Eulenburg No. 104 (England) - Beethoven Trio Op. 87 for 2 oboes and cor anglais. No date, no editor, no copyright notice. In good condition but the type looks old in style. (Public domain.)

Eulenburg No. 106 & 107 (Switzerland) - Dittersdorf String Quartets in D major and B flat major. "Revidiert von Wilhelm Altmann." Foreword by Prof. Dr. W. Altmann, Berlin 1938. Score itself has no date or copyright notice. (PD, except for the foreword?)

Eulenburg No. 275 (England) - Smetana String Quartet in E minor. No date, no editor, no copyright notice. Looks very old. (Public domain)

Eulenburg No. 373 (England) - Boccherini Serenade for 2 violins, bass, 2 oboes & 2 horns. "Edited from the original printed parts and with Foreword by Karl Haas." Score is marked "Copyright 1956 by Ernst Eulenburg Ltd". (First I thought PD because of the "typographical arrangement" rule, but would it depend on whether the editor was still alive?)

Eulenburg No. 375 (England) - Manfredini Concerto Grosso Op. 3 No. 12. "Revidiert und mit Vorwort versehen von Felix Schroeder." Foreword is dated February 1957. No date or copyright notice on the score itself. (as above?)

Eulenburg No. 521 (England) - J.C. Bach, Sinfonia in D Op. 18 No. 4. "Edited for the first time and with foreword by Alfred Einstein." Foreword dated 1934. No date or copyright notice on the score itself. (as above?)

Eulenburg No.522 (England)- J.C. Bach, Sinfonia in E flat Op. 9 No. 2. "Edited and with foreword by Fritz Stein." Foreword dated September 1935. Score has the notice "Copyright 1950 by Ernest Eulenburg Ltd." (Score = PD. Foreword - depending on editor?)

Eulenburg No. 773 (England) - J.C. Bach, Piano Concerto in E Flat. Revised by Ernst Pretorius. Foreword dated February 1937. No date or copyright notice on the score itself. (Same as the above?)

Eulenburg No. 776 (England) - Barsanti, Concerto Grosso in D Op. 3 No. 4. Edited and with foreword by Ernst Praetorius. Foreword dated July 1937. Score has notice "Copyright 1953 by Ernst Eulenburg, Ltd." (as above?)

Eulenburg No. 1218 (England) - Leo, Cello Concerto in D major. Edited by Felix Schroeder. Foreword dated 1958. No date or copyright notice on the score itself. (PD except for the foreword (typographical arrangement rule)? Or not PD yet until 2009?)

Eulenburg No. 1236 (England) - J.C. Bach, Sinfonia Concertante for Flute, Oboe, Violin, Cello & Orchestra. Edited and with foreword by C.R.F. Maunder. Foreword not dated. Score says "Copyright 1961 by E. Eulenburg, London." (Not PD until 2012? or PD due to the "typographical arrangement" rule?)

OK, so am I close? Or do I get to go to jail?

(if I was to start on the oldest scores and work forward, it would probably be 2012 before I got to the end anyway...)

aldona

aldona wrote:Let me see if I have this straight.
In England there is this rule about "typographical arrangement." Does that mean that if the Eulenburg score was printed in England, and the editor is not named, it only gets 25 years before it enters the public domain?

In that case, it is probably best to fall back on the Canadian publication+50 law; this is because under UK law, copyright in anonymous works is protected for publication+70 years, which would be longer than the Canadian law.

What about if the editor is named?

Then in order to be in the public domain in Canada either one of the following must be true:

1. To qualify as public domain in Canada via the Berne Rule of the Shorter term (i.e. public domain in the country of origin, England in this case), the editor must have died more than 70 years ago and the publication must be published more than 25 years ago, or

2. To qualify as public domain in Canada via native Canadian copyright law, the editor must have died more than 50 years ago, and the publication must be published more than 50 years ago. (actually I'm no longer sure of the second half... but just follow it for now to be safe; I'll go back and reread the Canadian Copyright Act to this effect soon)

Or the foreword has a name and date but the score itself has no date or copyright notice?

You are venturing into rather uncertain territory here... this would require a certain amount of research (i.e. has anyone reprinted it? etc.) If the forward date is significantly earlier than the deadline for public-domainness you can be reasonably sure that it is public domain, but as I said above it the territory is uncertain...

Also, Carolus, please add anything more that you know, or correct my mistakes

Or if it is printed in Germany or Switzerland?

Then the copyright of that country applies. I don't know about Switzerland, but you can find the Germany info on the public domain page

I'm assuming of course that the composer has been dead for well over 70 years - all the music that I tend to collect is usually baroque to romantic, the Reger being an exception.)

Yep... I'm replying on that assumption too

Eulenburg No. 5 (Leipzig) - Cherubini String Quartet in E flat. No date, no editor and no copyright notice anywhere. Looks old. (This one has "public domain" written all over it.)

Yep, Leipzig means before the 1940s (Eulenburg moved to London after that)

Eulenburg No. 104 (England) - Beethoven Trio Op. 87 for 2 oboes and cor anglais. No date, no editor, no copyright notice. In good condition but the type looks old in style. (Public domain.)

May well be a reprint.

Eulenburg No. 106 & 107 (Switzerland) - Dittersdorf String Quartets in D major and B flat major. "Revidiert von Wilhelm Altmann." Foreword by Prof. Dr. W. Altmann, Berlin 1938. Score itself has no date or copyright notice. (PD, except for the foreword?)

Well, Altmann died in 1951, so even the foreward is public domain I think this is a case of the fact that the dates are way older than the cutoff date for public domain-ness. Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think "Revidiert" means "Revised" (i.e. edited)? In which case yes it is in the public domain.

Eulenburg No. 275 (England) - Smetana String Quartet in E minor. No date, no editor, no copyright notice. Looks very old. (Public domain)

Probably reprint...

Eulenburg No. 373 (England) - Boccherini Serenade for 2 violins, bass, 2 oboes & 2 horns. "Edited from the original printed parts and with Foreword by Karl Haas." Score is marked "Copyright 1956 by Ernst Eulenburg Ltd". (First I thought PD because of the "typographical arrangement" rule, but would it depend on whether the editor was still alive?)

Haas died recently in 2005, so this is not public domain.

Eulenburg No. 375 (England) - Manfredini Concerto Grosso Op. 3 No. 12. "Revidiert und mit Vorwort versehen von Felix Schroeder." Foreword is dated February 1957. No date or copyright notice on the score itself. (as above?)

At the earliest this would be public domain in 2008; but I'm pretty sure that this would fall into the public domain much later, as Schroeder edited the score, and I'm not even sure that he's passed away yet (he apparently edited some NMA stuff, which would be at least in the 1970s).

Eulenburg No. 521 (England) - J.C. Bach, Sinfonia in D Op. 18 No. 4. "Edited for the first time and with foreword by Alfred Einstein." Foreword dated 1934. No date or copyright notice on the score itself. (as above?)

The famous musicologist Alfred Einstein died in 1952, so this is public domain

Eulenburg No.522 (England)- J.C. Bach, Sinfonia in E flat Op. 9 No. 2. "Edited and with foreword by Fritz Stein." Foreword dated September 1935. Score has the notice "Copyright 1950 by Ernest Eulenburg Ltd." (Score = PD. Foreword - depending on editor?)

Stein died in 1961, so this is public domain for sure in 2012. The problem is (as with No.375 above), the editor is a German, so maybe his copyright falls under the German publication+25 law? I'm not sure... Carolus, do you know?

Eulenburg No. 773 (England) - J.C. Bach, Piano Concerto in E Flat. Revised by Ernst Pretorius. Foreword dated February 1937. No date or copyright notice on the score itself. (Same as the above?)

In the public domain because Praetorius died in 1946: http://musicsack.com/PersonFMTDetail.cf ... =100038709

Eulenburg No. 776 (England) - Barsanti, Concerto Grosso in D Op. 3 No. 4. Edited and with foreword by Ernst Praetorius. Foreword dated July 1937. Score has notice "Copyright 1953 by Ernst Eulenburg, Ltd." (as above?)

As above

Eulenburg No. 1218 (England) - Leo, Cello Concerto in D major. Edited by Felix Schroeder. Foreword dated 1958. No date or copyright notice on the score itself. (PD except for the foreword (typographical arrangement rule)? Or not PD yet until 2009?)

Again, this is ambiguous because of the German nationality of Schroeder... otherwise it'd be when Schroeder died + 50 years.

Eulenburg No. 1236 (England) - J.C. Bach, Sinfonia Concertante for Flute, Oboe, Violin, Cello & Orchestra. Edited and with foreword by C.R.F. Maunder. Foreword not dated. Score says "Copyright 1961 by E. Eulenburg, London." (Not PD until 2012? or PD due to the "typographical arrangement" rule?)

C.R.F. Maunder seems alive and kicking in 1988... so I think it'd be in copyright for quite a while longer

Remember, the typographic arrangement rule does not apply when there is an actual editor; it only applies for re-engravings of old scores.

OK, so am I close? Or do I get to go to jail?

Hehe... close enough to avoid the bars I think

(if I was to start on the oldest scores and work forward, it would probably be 2012 before I got to the end anyway...)

Hehehe....

A couple of points:

1. The presence of a forward dated before 1939 means that the edition in question was first published in Germany, since Eulenburg's London office was merely a subsidiary address until that date. The German copyright rule for editions (25 years) applies in these cases. If the copyright claim is later than the preface, it is almost certainly a scarecrow notice (Barsanti/Praetorius) and free in the USA. The country of origin is that country where the edition in question was first published, not reprinted later. For Eulenburg, everything first published between 1894 and 1938 originated in Germany.

2. For any works with a copyright claim after 1950 and before 1964, you can go to the US Copyright Office's site to check for renewal status. Eulenburg has a rather poor track record in this regard. Thus, the 1956 Boccherini score edited by Karl Haas had to be renewed in 1984 in order to retain validity as a US copyright, since Haas was a US citizen by that date.

3. The English law is more vague than the German one on the issue of editions, but nevertheless appears to apply a similar standard of originality. In other words, an editor must contribute significant original material in order to qualify for a full life-plus-70 copyright term. It would therefore appear that the music itself (as opposed to the preface or editor's notes) would be considered a mere typographic copyright entitled to a 25-year term just as in Germany, regardless of whether or not an editor is credited.

Well... at least that means I didn't falsely name any score public domain which is copyrighted Even if I screwed up on most of the other ones haha...