Haydn piano sonatas

[PGOAA]

Hello! I would like to ask how many two-handed piano sonatas Haydn composed in total? Which currently available sheet music editions contain the most complete collections of these piano sonatas? Up until now, I have found 57 sonatas in Wiener Urtext, which holds the most collection of these sonatas. But according to Wikipedia, Haydn composed more than 62 sonatas. Which currently available sheet music editions contain more than 57 or the truly most complete collections of them please?

Thank you very much!

[ScoreUpdater]

There are several editions of Haydn's piano sonatas.

The Karl Päsler 1918 Breitkopf und Härtel edition contains 52 sonatas which correspond to the 52 sonatas in Anthony van Hoboken's catalogue.

The Carl Adolf Martienssen 1937 Peters edition contains 49 sonatas; the 52 sonatas in Hoboken's catalogue minus the three sonatas Hob.XVI:15, 16 and 17 which were considered doubtful.

The Schirmer edition reprints the Martienssen Peters edition but adds the three doubtful sonatas Hob.XVI:15, 16 and 17 back in its own engraving.

The Georg Feder 1966/70 Henle Complete Works edition contains 54 sonatas: excluding Hob.XVI:15, 17 and 18 but including Hob.XIV:5, Hob.XVI:G1, Es2 Add. and Es3 Add. and Hob.XVII:D1.

While the Christa Landon 1964/66 Wiener Urtext edition numbers the sonatas from 1 to 62, this numbering is misleading since seven of the sonatas are lost (making a total of 55 sonatas). However, the sonata Hob.XVI:16, which did not receive a Wiener Urtext number by Landon, was included in the 2009 reissue edited by Ulrich Leisinger and this makes 56 sonatas in total. I'm not sure how you counted 57 sonatas though!

[cheap imitation]

There are generally agreed to be 54 or 55 complete surviving Haydn sonatas: Hob.XVI:1-10, 12-14, 16, 18-52, G1, Es2, Es3, F3 and Hob.XVII:D1 (one sonata, Hob.XVI:47, exists in two versions, the first in E and the second in F). 1, 5, 16, the F major version of 47, Es2 and Es3 are of doubtful authenticity, although no other attribution has been proposed; Hob.XVI:F3 was discovered recently and is also of doubtful authenticity. So there are basically 48 indisputably authentic sonatas.

There is a sonata fragment, Hob.XIV:5, which has been reconstructed but I'm not sure how authentic that is. If you include it along with both versions of Hob.XVI:47 that's 56.

Hob.XVI:11 combines the last movement of G1 with a minuet from a baryton trio, Hob.XVI:15 is a divertimento for flute, oboe and strings by Haydn arranged for keyboard, Hob.XVI:Es1 is a single-movement arrangement of an aria from a pasticcio by Haydn. They can plausibly be included as containing at least some of his music, for a total of 59. The Wiener Urtext edition considers only Hob.XVI:11 to be authentic (or partially so), thus its total of 57.

There are the seven lost sonatas (Hob.XVI:2a-h) only known from incipits. A modern composer named Winfried Michel composed sonatas in Haydn's style based on these and published them as "rediscovered Haydn sonatas" in the 1990s. In theory one could include these to obtain 66 sonatas, even though only the first few bars of each one is by him.

Finally there's Hob.XVI:17 (actually by Johann Gottfried Schwanenberger), Hob.XVI:C1 (possibly by Joseph Haroldt), Hob.XVI:C2 (real author unknown), Hob.XVI:D1 (possibly by Ferdinand Kauer), Hob.XVI:B1 (real author unknown), the three "Göttweig" sonatas (actually by Franz Anton Hoffmeister), and the six "Frankfurt" sonatas (now believed to be by a North German composer). So if you want to include every piano sonata at one time attributed to Haydn, that's 80 in total: 48 authentic, 7 disputed, 3 arrangements by others, 1 reconstructed, 7 lost, 14 misattributed. (There were also some sonatas by Pleyel attributed to Haydn, but there were likewise Haydn sonatas attributed to Pleyel; both composers were immensely popular at the time and maintained a friendly teacher-student rivalry.)

See, e.g.: https://publish.iupress.indiana.edu/rea ... 3ed436#fm2

[PGOAA]

Thank you very much! I rechecked the Henle edition and assume that it is the currently available sheet music edition that contains the most complete collection of Haydn’s piano by far? From the content there are 49 completed sonatas and there 5 Sonatas attributed to Haydn and 1 sonatas movement in the supplement. But there is also a collection of Incipits lost sonatas, it didn’t say the amount, but I assume it is 7? If that’s so, then there are 62 in total. I assume that no currently available purchasable sheet music editions would contain 80 yes?

[PGOAA]

There are generally agreed to be 54 or 55 complete surviving Haydn sonatas: Hob.XVI:1-10, 12-14, 16, 18-52, G1, Es2, Es3, F3 and Hob.XVII:D1 (one sonata, Hob.XVI:47, exists in two versions, the first in E and the second in F). 1, 5, 16, the F major version of 47, Es2 and Es3 are of doubtful authenticity, although no other attribution has been proposed; Hob.XVI:F3 was discovered recently and is also of doubtful authenticity. So there are basically 48 indisputably authentic sonatas.

There is a sonata fragment, Hob.XIV:5, which has been reconstructed but I'm not sure how authentic that is. If you include it along with both versions of Hob.XVI:47 that's 56.

Hob.XVI:11 combines the last movement of G1 with a minuet from a baryton trio, Hob.XVI:15 is a divertimento for flute, oboe and strings by Haydn arranged for keyboard, Hob.XVI:Es1 is a single-movement arrangement of an aria from a pasticcio by Haydn. They can plausibly be included as containing at least some of his music, for a total of 59. The Wiener Urtext edition considers only Hob.XVI:11 to be authentic (or partially so), thus its total of 57.

There are the seven lost sonatas (Hob.XVI:2a-h) only known from incipits. A modern composer named Winfried Michel composed sonatas in Haydn's style based on these and published them as "rediscovered Haydn sonatas" in the 1990s. In theory one could include these to obtain 66 sonatas, even though only the first few bars of each one is by him.

Finally there's Hob.XVI:17 (actually by Johann Gottfried Schwanenberger), Hob.XVI:C1 (possibly by Joseph Haroldt), Hob.XVI:C2 (real author unknown), Hob.XVI:D1 (possibly by Ferdinand Kauer), Hob.XVI:B1 (real author unknown), the three "Göttweig" sonatas (actually by Franz Anton Hoffmeister), and the six "Frankfurt" sonatas (now believed to be by a North German composer). So if you want to include every piano sonata at one time attributed to Haydn, that's 80 in total: 48 authentic, 7 disputed, 3 arrangements by others, 1 reconstructed, 7 lost, 14 misattributed. (There were also some sonatas by Pleyel attributed to Haydn, but there were likewise Haydn sonatas attributed to Pleyel; both composers were immensely popular at the time and maintained a friendly teacher-student rivalry.)

See, e.g.: https://publish.iupress.indiana.edu/rea ... 3ed436#fm2

There are generally agreed to be 54 or 55 complete surviving Haydn sonatas: Hob.XVI:1-10, 12-14, 16, 18-52, G1, Es2, Es3, F3 and Hob.XVII:D1 (one sonata, Hob.XVI:47, exists in two versions, the first in E and the second in F). 1, 5, 16, the F major version of 47, Es2 and Es3 are of doubtful authenticity, although no other attribution has been proposed; Hob.XVI:F3 was discovered recently and is also of doubtful authenticity. So there are basically 48 indisputably authentic sonatas.

There is a sonata fragment, Hob.XIV:5, which has been reconstructed but I'm not sure how authentic that is. If you include it along with both versions of Hob.XVI:47 that's 56.

Hob.XVI:11 combines the last movement of G1 with a minuet from a baryton trio, Hob.XVI:15 is a divertimento for flute, oboe and strings by Haydn arranged for keyboard, Hob.XVI:Es1 is a single-movement arrangement of an aria from a pasticcio by Haydn. They can plausibly be included as containing at least some of his music, for a total of 59. The Wiener Urtext edition considers only Hob.XVI:11 to be authentic (or partially so), thus its total of 57.

There are the seven lost sonatas (Hob.XVI:2a-h) only known from incipits. A modern composer named Winfried Michel composed sonatas in Haydn's style based on these and published them as "rediscovered Haydn sonatas" in the 1990s. In theory one could include these to obtain 66 sonatas, even though only the first few bars of each one is by him.

Finally there's Hob.XVI:17 (actually by Johann Gottfried Schwanenberger), Hob.XVI:C1 (possibly by Joseph Haroldt), Hob.XVI:C2 (real author unknown), Hob.XVI:D1 (possibly by Ferdinand Kauer), Hob.XVI:B1 (real author unknown), the three "Göttweig" sonatas (actually by Franz Anton Hoffmeister), and the six "Frankfurt" sonatas (now believed to be by a North German composer). So if you want to include every piano sonata at one time attributed to Haydn, that's 80 in total: 48 authentic, 7 disputed, 3 arrangements by others, 1 reconstructed, 7 lost, 14 misattributed. (There were also some sonatas by Pleyel attributed to Haydn, but there were likewise Haydn sonatas attributed to Pleyel; both composers were immensely popular at the time and maintained a friendly teacher-student rivalry.)

See, e.g.: https://publish.iupress.indiana.edu/rea ... 3ed436#fm2

Thank you again! I could not find any sheet music resorces about Hob. XVI C1 C3 B1. Do these sheet musics exist?

[cheap imitation]

Thank you very much! I rechecked the Henle edition and assume that it is the currently available sheet music edition that contains the most complete collection of Haydn’s piano by far? From the content there are 49 completed sonatas and there 5 Sonatas attributed to Haydn and 1 sonatas movement in the supplement. But there is also a collection of Incipits lost sonatas, it didn’t say the amount, but I assume it is 7? If that’s so, then there are 62 in total. I assume that no currently available purchasable sheet music editions would contain 80 yes?

Yes, the most complete is the Wiener Urtext since it contains two sonatas not in Henle (47bis and F3). With the seven incipits that's 64, although I'm not sure if Wiener Urtext reprints the incipits as well.

Michel's sonatas based on those incipits are published by Amadeus and obviously under copyright now that he's been proven to be the author, and can't be reprinted. (If he really wanted to make his musical forgery convincing he would have released them into the public domain )

Thank you again! I could not find any sheet music resorces about Hob. XVI C1 C3 B1. Do these sheet musics exist?

Per this C1 and B1 are known from manuscripts held at the ÖNB, C2 is a manuscript held in Genoa. No idea whether any of them has been digitised (probably not as they've been considered inauthentic for a long time).

[PGOAA]

Thank you very much! I rechecked the Henle edition and assume that it is the currently available sheet music edition that contains the most complete collection of Haydn’s piano by far? From the content there are 49 completed sonatas and there 5 Sonatas attributed to Haydn and 1 sonatas movement in the supplement. But there is also a collection of Incipits lost sonatas, it didn’t say the amount, but I assume it is 7? If that’s so, then there are 62 in total. I assume that no currently available purchasable sheet music editions would contain 80 yes?

Yes, the most complete is the Wiener Urtext since it contains two sonatas not in Henle (47bis and F3). With the seven incipits that's 64, although I'm not sure if Wiener Urtext reprints the incipits as well.

Michel's sonatas based on those incipits are published by Amadeus and obviously under copyright now that he's been proven to be the author, and can't be reprinted. (If he really wanted to make his musical forgery convincing he would have released them into the public domain )

Thank you again! I could not find any sheet music resorces about Hob. XVI C1 C3 B1. Do these sheet musics exist?

Per this C1 and B1 are known from manuscripts held at the ÖNB, C2 is a manuscript held in Genoa. No idea whether any of them has been digitised (probably not as they've been considered inauthentic for a long time).

Thank you very much!

[PGOAA]

Thank you very much! I rechecked the Henle edition and assume that it is the currently available sheet music edition that contains the most complete collection of Haydn’s piano by far? From the content there are 49 completed sonatas and there 5 Sonatas attributed to Haydn and 1 sonatas movement in the supplement. But there is also a collection of Incipits lost sonatas, it didn’t say the amount, but I assume it is 7? If that’s so, then there are 62 in total. I assume that no currently available purchasable sheet music editions would contain 80 yes?

Yes, the most complete is the Wiener Urtext since it contains two sonatas not in Henle (47bis and F3). With the seven incipits that's 64, although I'm not sure if Wiener Urtext reprints the incipits as well.

Michel's sonatas based on those incipits are published by Amadeus and obviously under copyright now that he's been proven to be the author, and can't be reprinted. (If he really wanted to make his musical forgery convincing he would have released them into the public domain )

Thank you again! I could not find any sheet music resorces about Hob. XVI C1 C3 B1. Do these sheet musics exist?

Per this C1 and B1 are known from manuscripts held at the ÖNB, C2 is a manuscript held in Genoa. No idea whether any of them has been digitised (probably not as they've been considered inauthentic for a long time).

May I ask what is the 3 arrangements from the 80 pieces please? I didn’t find it in the website you gave me. Thank you!

[cheap imitation]

May I ask what is the 3 arrangements from the 80 pieces please? I didn’t find it in the website you gave me. Thank you!

All 3 are on here:

• https://imslp.org/wiki/Divertimento_in_ ... n,_Joseph) (composite of https://imslp.org/wiki/Baryton_Trio_in_ ... 2C_Joseph) and https://imslp.org/wiki/Keyboard_Sonata_ ... 2C_Joseph))
• https://imslp.org/wiki/Keyboard_Sonata_ ... n,_Joseph) (arr. from https://imslp.org/wiki/Divertimento_in_ ... n,_Joseph))
• https://imslp.org/wiki/Keyboard_Sonata_ ... 2C_Joseph) (arr. from pasticcio Circe)

[PGOAA]

May I ask what is the 3 arrangements from the 80 pieces please? I didn’t find it in the website you gave me. Thank you!

All 3 are on here:

• https://imslp.org/wiki/Divertimento_in_ ... n,_Joseph) (composite of https://imslp.org/wiki/Baryton_Trio_in_ ... 2C_Joseph) and https://imslp.org/wiki/Keyboard_Sonata_ ... 2C_Joseph))
• https://imslp.org/wiki/Keyboard_Sonata_ ... n,_Joseph) (arr. from https://imslp.org/wiki/Divertimento_in_ ... n,_Joseph))
• https://imslp.org/wiki/Keyboard_Sonata_ ... 2C_Joseph) (arr. from pasticcio Circe)

Thank you very much!

[PGOAA]

May I ask what is the 3 arrangements from the 80 pieces please? I didn’t find it in the website you gave me. Thank you!

All 3 are on here:

• https://imslp.org/wiki/Divertimento_in_ ... n,_Joseph) (composite of https://imslp.org/wiki/Baryton_Trio_in_ ... 2C_Joseph) and https://imslp.org/wiki/Keyboard_Sonata_ ... 2C_Joseph))
• https://imslp.org/wiki/Keyboard_Sonata_ ... n,_Joseph) (arr. from https://imslp.org/wiki/Divertimento_in_ ... n,_Joseph))
• https://imslp.org/wiki/Keyboard_Sonata_ ... 2C_Joseph) (arr. from pasticcio Circe)

From the website it is said Hob. XVI C2 is in Genoa Italy. But where exactly, is it in a library or university or…? In Genoa? You said there are 7 disputed works. Can you also find it in IMSLP? What is the Hoboken number of these 7 exactly please? Maybe the information of this is in the website, but I just couldn’t understand it very well. I assume disputed is still different from misattributed yes? Thank you very much!

[PGOAA]

There are several editions of Haydn's piano sonatas.

The Karl Päsler 1918 Breitkopf und Härtel edition contains 52 sonatas which correspond to the 52 sonatas in Anthony van Hoboken's catalogue.

The Carl Adolf Martienssen 1937 Peters edition contains 49 sonatas; the 52 sonatas in Hoboken's catalogue minus the three sonatas Hob.XVI:15, 16 and 17 which were considered doubtful.

The Schirmer edition reprints the Martienssen Peters edition but adds the three doubtful sonatas Hob.XVI:15, 16 and 17 back in its own engraving.

The Georg Feder 1966/70 Henle Complete Works edition contains 54 sonatas: excluding Hob.XVI:15, 17 and 18 but including Hob.XIV:5, Hob.XVI:G1, Es2 Add. and Es3 Add. and Hob.XVII:D1.

While the Christa Landon 1964/66 Wiener Urtext edition numbers the sonatas from 1 to 62, this numbering is misleading since seven of the sonatas are lost (making a total of 55 sonatas). However, the sonata Hob.XVI:16, which did not receive a Wiener Urtext number by Landon, was included in the 2009 reissue edited by Ulrich Leisinger and this makes 56 sonatas in total. I'm not sure how you counted 57 sonatas though!

Thanks! I would like to ask what is the difference between Breitkopf and Härtel edition and Peters edition please? Which edition do you recommend please? Someone said that breitkopf is more precise or accurate than Peters? I am not sure. Thank you!