reger, "espressive e marcato"

[steltz]

To any Reger specialists or enthusiasts:

This marking comes up in the Clarinet Sonata op.107, under a line that is entirely slurred. I'm used to seeing marcato under tongued passages, but not under slurs. And I take it that Reger has used it on passages in other works as well.

It could be something Reger took over from organ technique (?), but it seems to be at such opposites, that it is an anacronism.

Has anyone got any ideas on what Reger meant?

[vinteuil]

Possibly, it means "expressive, but marked." Expressive doesn't necessarily mean legato.

[steltz]

The slur would take care of the legato part, so it will be legato anyway. I guess the main problem is marked and slurred at the same time. Any ideas on that?

[varnis]

My guess is that the slur is probably but a phrase mark, as such, the passage is simply suggested as a phrase, then within that the notes expressive but marked could be played legato, but tongued to give a slight detachment?

[vinteuil]

Portato would be the strings equivalent - I guess.

[varnis]

Indeed, though may i stress ive never played this piece, so my comments are purely speculation based upon experience of other pieces

[allegroamabile]

If I were you, I would just listen to a recording of the Sonata to hear whatever clarinetist has done with that particular phrase. Anthony Pike has a good recording of all the Reger Sonatas along with his Albumblatt and Tarantella.

Anyways, it could just be a misprint.

[allegroamabile]

One more thing, could you be generous enough to upload that onto IMSLP. That would be just great.

[steltz]

I will check my edition to see if it's PD, then I will upload. I don't expect to be quick at this, it will be my first scan and upload!

[tickle88]

Espressivo, marcato, and legato are not mutually exclusive. I, too, would love to see this score uploaded, so I could see the passage in context. I am a pianist, not a clarinetist, but I know some fine wind players, and will run this by them when vacations are over. For what it's worth, many piano composers used both staccato markings and pedal indications at the same time--the staccato meaning simply, "Get your finger off the cotton-pickin' key!" Reger's piano music (see my comments on the "Undiscovered beauties" forum) (or his scores here) is full of this sort of thing, including staccato dots under slurs, which Beethoven and many others also used. Commentators usually say that means "Non legato", which is a cop-out if ever I heard one. Your best guide? Play it several ways and have confidence in your own taste.

[vinteuil]

Espressivo, marcato, and legato are not mutually exclusive. I, too, would love to see this score uploaded, so I could see the passage in context. I am a pianist, not a clarinetist, but I know some fine wind players, and will run this by them when vacations are over. For what it's worth, many piano composers used both staccato markings and pedal indications at the same time--the staccato meaning simply, "Get your finger off the cotton-pickin' key!" Reger's piano music (see my comments on the "Undiscovered beauties" forum) (or his scores here) is full of this sort of thing, including staccato dots under slurs, which Beethoven and many others also used. Commentators usually say that means "Non legato", which is a cop-out if ever I heard one. Your best guide? Play it several ways and have confidence in your own taste.

For what it's worth:
1. Pedal doesn't have to mean legato - it is an "effect" until Schumann.
2. Staccato slurs are called portato, which is how they are to be played.

[Lyle Neff]

Another situation in which staccato marks are used under slurs is when the piece is a transcription from music for string(s) -- when the string player(s) would play the staccato-marked notes all under one bow-stroke.

Here's one piano marking I can't figure out: A dynamic on one note that shows "pf." Any ideas?

[steltz]

I'm actually quite used to seeing staccato under slurs -- Brahms does it quite frequently and it's for longish notes with some separation between. I always think of them as slightly "sticky" notes.

I've always felt that marcato denotes some extra type of definition given by more attack or small accent, and in fact the Wikipedia definition (although open to debate) specifies (for wind instruments) "a note articulation which combines the fortepiano or sforzando of the accented note with a note duration reduced to two-thirds of its written value (the other third being occupied by a rest)". This is what is at odds with the slur mark, especially since the notes aren't marked with a staccato dot in addition to the slur.

Whether separate and accented, or (if the slur is taken literally) done with breath accents under a slur, some of Reger's passages involve 20 or more notes in one phrase. To separate and accent, or breath accent, each one of these will sound choppy, and definitely not expressive. Or, as one of my students put it, like a little old lady who is a nervous driver and keeps hitting the brake too much . . . . . .

Another option is that only the first note of the phrase is marcato.

By the way, I will try to upload this in the next week, then I'll post again and give bar numbers.

[vinteuil]

Another situation in which staccato marks are used under slurs is when the piece is a transcription from music for string(s) -- when the string player(s) would play the staccato-marked notes all under one bow-stroke.

Here's one piano marking I can't figure out: A dynamic on one note that shows "pf." Any ideas?

Webern is crazy; he does that a ton (and Cresc. on ONE NOTE (!)) - I would just play it as if the forte is on the next note - context?

[Lyle Neff]

Another situation in which staccato marks are used under slurs is when the piece is a transcription from music for string(s) -- when the string player(s) would play the staccato-marked notes all under one bow-stroke.

Here's one piano marking I can't figure out: A dynamic on one note that shows "pf." Any ideas?

Webern is crazy; he does that a ton (and Cresc. on ONE NOTE (!)) - I would just play it as if the forte is on the next note - context?

"pf" is found in the Nocturne from Op. 6 (Soirées musicales), by Clara Schumann.