need info on 'pf' marking

[steltz]

I have encountered a 'pf' marking on occasion in music, but I am now working on orchestral parts for Crusell's Concerto no.1. It occurs quite frequently -- once in the slow movement, the rest in the Rondo, but always with a diminuendo afterward. (The edition is a Kuhnel edition from somewhere between 1800 and 1813.)

One definition on the web I found was "piano-forte", soft and then immediately loud, but in this case I don't think it really makes sense, because it would be soft-loud-soft (apart from the fact that I would find it intrinsically unmusical in these phrases).

Apart from "piano-forte", I'm thinking another definition could be "piu forte", although I have never seen this abbreviated to pf. In this piece, a mild stress followed by decay, makes much more musical sense.

Has anyone ever seen the pf marking in this context, i.e. "piu forte"?

[horndude77]

Check out Brahms Academic Festival Overture (measure 129, 2 measures after the key change to g major and a few measures before rehearsal mark F). In the score (all editions here that I've looked at) all the strings parts indicate 'pf' except the first violin part which has 'poco f'. Also if you look at the parts for the strings you'll find that they are marked 'poco f' instead of 'pf' (except for the bass for some reason). This could be another possible explanation.

[sbeckmesser]

I find "poco forte" a more convincing as a reading. But it would be great if we could see the context in which these occur. Also, are the decrescendos signified by "dim" or hairpins? If hairpins are used, make sure they are true, lengthy hairpin decrescendos and not wider-than-modern-typography accents. A pf followed by a small accent would also make perfect sense as a somewhat gentle accent. Again, seeing the original context would help clarify matters.

Note: The last chord of Schubert's "Great" C-Major symphony (formerly either No. 9 or No.7 but now officially known -- but not here-- as No.Eight) has sometimes been performed with a decrescendo although in Schubert's autograph score what has been interpreted as a diminuendo hairpin can also be an emphatically written oversized accent, which occurs often in his autograph scores and which makes greater musical sense at the end of this movement. Besides, a long decresendo on a climactic last chord is more fitting in a late-romantic piece like the New World Symphony. Compare the last four bars of the Schubert as shown in the Breitkopf score at IMSLP (fz + 3 bar diminuendo hairpin) with the new Barenreiter Urtext (fz + accent on the first note).

--Sixtus

[sbeckmesser]

I just looked over the one early 19th century Crusell score at IMSLP (Divertimento Op.9) and it struck me that if the letters are blurred and misaligned just right, what is clearly in context a sforzando (sf) could be misread either as a fortissimo (ff) or a pf (piu or poco forte as we've been discussing). This is another reason why it is necessary to see the originals in order to make in informed decision. At this point I'd actually lean towards a sforzando interpretation, given that this occurs in the Op.9 and is followed there at times by either a "decresc" or a long hairpin.

--Sixtus

[steltz]

@Sixtus: I do hope to get both the modern typeset and the originals up on IMSLP eventually. However, the library that sent me the copies enclosed a note saying it was for private use only. I realize we've been through this discussion before in another thread, but it doesn't involve copyright law, it involves contract law, and this is untested in pretty much every country as far as I am aware. This particular library has a wealth of things, and I don't want them refusing my requests because I'm not adhering to their terms.

Where a modern typeset of their copies stands in the middle of this I don't know, but it will be simpler if I can just get permission from the library involved. (The reason for doing the typeset was to get a conductor's score, which didn't exist in the early 1800s, but obviously a part extraction, once I have the score, will be very easy.)

As far as scanning the copies of the originals goes, this will be long and laborious. The originals, being from the early 1800s, must have been very brown, and they didn't copy well. There are large sections that have lots of black in the background. Using the threshold setting to whiten this will also get rid of lots of notes. Looks like it's going to be "block off sections that should be white, and manually change the colour to white". This will have to be done on each page individually. On top of that, I'm waiting for a better scanner (I ordered one at work a little while ago).

I am aware of the accent vs. diminuendo issue, particularly with Schubert. In the Crusell, where the pf is concerned here, it's definitely a long diminuendo, but there are other sections where it's ambiguous. My editorial decisions were mostly based on musical context plus counting how many instrument on a particular note had the elongated vs shorter version. In one case I think it was only 1 out of 6 instruments that had the elongated version, so I went with the accent.

The sf vs pf thing came up in another piece, although in a slightly different context. The Dittersdorf Notturno for 4 flutes (from IMSLP) has lots of markings that could either be "f" or "for" followed by a colon, or else the colon could be a "z" where all but the corners have faded out and it just looks like a colon now. This will affect interpretation: a block forte for a whole phrase vs. a stressed note.

Since I have to do a typeset of this soon(-ish) for a chamber music camp next April, do you have any opinions on this?

[wurlitzer153]

Note: The last chord of Schubert's "Great" C-Major symphony (formerly either No. 9 or No.7 but now officially known -- but not here-- as No.Eight) has sometimes been performed with a decrescendo although in Schubert's autograph score what has been interpreted as a diminuendo hairpin can also be an emphatically written oversized accent, which occurs often in his autograph scores and which makes greater musical sense at the end of this movement. Besides, a long decresendo on a climactic last chord is more fitting in a late-romantic piece like the New World Symphony. Compare the last four bars of the Schubert as shown in the Breitkopf score at IMSLP (fz + 3 bar diminuendo hairpin) with the new Barenreiter Urtext (fz + accent on the first note).

--Sixtus

A similar misprint occurs in Beethoven's 9th at the end of the first singing of the "Ode to Joy" melody before the Turkish March. Most printings show "ff" on the final chord except for the drum roll, which is printed (in the Litolff edition, for example) as "ff >p." This, of course, does not make much sense as the entire orchestra and chorus has the tendency to get louder on that chord. B & H went to great lengths to verify the composer's intentions on that roll in their recent urtext edition.

Finally, another important universal misprint occurs earlier in the movement, when the cellos and basses are introducing the famous theme. When the violas and the first bassoon join the counterpoint, the composer intended to have the second bassoon double the basses. Almost all printings, starting with the first edition, omit that note.

[sbeckmesser]

These small but significant variations are just another example of why I keep asking whether uploads of "PD" critical editions could also contain the critical reports, which help one zero in on what has been changed compared to earlier editions. Some critical editions differ in many such points from, say, the first printed editions (I'm thinking here of the PD Czech editions of Dvorak's Cello Concerto and 9th Symphony). There still has been no definitive answer on the postability of critical reports, unfortunately.

--Sixtus

[steltz]

The only possible problem I can see with it is that the person who wrote the report might still be protected by copyright.

If I am eventually allowed to post both typeset and original, I have a list of changes that so far is 3 pages long, and it will be posted. Most of the changes will not be controversial in any way -- lining up of crescendi so they all start in the same place etc. But, of course, for those changes that aren't so straightforward, it's nice to have the option of doing the original.

[kalliwoda]

Had just a look at the Dittersdorf:
The use of colons after f and p is pretty typical of manuscripts from this time, I wouldn't think any on the first couple pages should be read as a fz. I would rather expect to find a colon or at least a point even after a fz marking
What struck me, however, is the use of for and f, respectively. Is there any systematic behind those different markings? Longer notes seem to carry the "for" notation...
The reason I am so interested are three Partitas by Dittersdorf (ms from the Kgl Hausbibliothek): They even have "pia:" and "for:", and then "p:" and "f:" Somehow it seems to have some significance, which version is used, rather then just the whim of the copyist.

Re: Permission by a library to post copies of their holdings: Make sure you stress that you don't intend commercial use - because most public libraries have separate fees for study (may include performance) and commercial use (i.e. professional).
The staff usually has no inkling which fee-table they should use for posting on the internet.
...and i can sort of understand, that they don't want to support a company like Kalmus or SMA with their subsidized copyservice.

[steltz]

In my request, I didn't mention commercial vs. non-commercial, but I did specifically say it would be for posting at IMSLP's Petrucci Music Library. Perhaps I should post back and just reiterate that it is non-commercial usage . . . . .