slurs in modern typesets - what would you rather see?

[steltz]

Older editions of music (early 1800s, for instance) frequently have one phrase slurred together by connecting two (or more) shorter slurs. So one note can have a slur coming into it, and another one going out of it again. In the case of a wind player, this note won't be tongued, since it is a continuation of the first slur. In the case of a string player it won't have a change of bow direction or separation of any kind (unless the person doing the bowings decides the phrase is too long for one bow, or alter the direction so some later note comes out in a desired up or down direction, but then this is done even with modern notation, so it doesn't really apply). In other words, in the old system, one phrase could have more than one slur.

This can get visually confusing, so modern notation fixes this by generally requiring one slur to indicate what is in one breath or one bow. Therefore, the phrase has one slur only, and it will go over any ties that are within the phrase; the slur will only end when the breath or bow ends.

So far, so good, and all very visually clear.

The one thing that is generally very inconsistently dealt with, and not even the Read book (bible) on notation covers it adequately, is how grace notes that fall within such a phrase, or (more frequently) start such a phrase are dealt with. Sometimes, the grace note is slurred to the main note and then the main slur starts from the main note, but then we are back at having a note with slurs coming in and out of it, and the note isn't separately articulated. Other times, the main slur starts from the grace note, but there is a second slur, connecting the grace note(s) to the main note, much like a tie under a slur. But since this isn't really a tie, it still amounts to 2 slurs.

If the idea is to get one slur starting at the first note to be tongued, then nothing else (except ties underneath the slur) should be added. So theoretically, the main slur should start at the first grace note and carry over until the last note in that phrase. Similarly, if the grace note(s) are within a slurred phrase, there should be no additional slur added.

I've tried this, and I have to admit it looks odd to me. I don't know if it's because I'm so used to seeing the other systems. I also can't find scores that do it this way, despite the guidelines set down in modern notation for the main slurs. (Admittedly, it's holiday now, and I don't have a full library to go trawl through.)

So the question is: do you have an opinion as to what you would like to see in modern typesets, and should we try to include grace notes in the "only one slur for one phrase" philosophy?

If you don't think we should include them, then choose one of the other 2 options:
a) slur grace note(s) to main note, then start main slur from there, or
b) start the main slur from first note to be tongued, but if that's a grace note, add a second slur just for the grace notes into the main note. In this option, grace notes within a phrase would have a slur to their main notes, and this slur would be additional to the main slur.

[allegroamabile]

I like having a slur from the grace note to the main note, then the main slur starting at the main note. As for grace notes in the middle of phrases, I would like a slur (if there is one) to stop at the note before the grace note, then a slur from the grace note to the main note, and finally the main slur from the main note. Besides, a grace note's stem is usually pointing opposite of the stem of the main note, so it would look awkward having a main slur slur everything.

What I don't like which occurs frequently in the nineteenth century editions are grace notes who should be counted as timed notes. See below for an instance in the Reicha Clarinet Quintet, Op. 107.

http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/9 ... va.vc..pdf

[kalliwoda]

I would generally place slurs from the grace note to the main note
(may dispel doubts such a note may be tounged, as could happen in far more modern pieces).

In the rare instances, where grace notes should not start tounged, but slurred/tied from the preceding main note, I have seen the slur/tie over the main notes, with each grace note having its own little slur - I liked this.

Especially in scores with little room for long slurs, you may deviate from the one slur per phrase, just to make things easier to discern, and if you have lot of time, then correct them in the parts...

Slurs generally seem to have been engraved very carelessly in the late 18th century, Imprimererie chimique editions f.e. are terrible in this respect. So there may be little point to carefully report every single change you made in your new critical edition, because it may effect more than 50% of all slurs in the piece. If you have an autograph score, that is another matter.

@allegroamabile
Those appoggiaturas in classical pieces should be played ever so slightly different from standard notation!
so I am sure poor ald Anton Reicha will rotate in his grave, at the mere thought that someone may want to convert all his carefully written and engraved appoggiaturas simply into standard notation

[allegroamabile]

My apologies, Mr. Reicha.

[sbeckmesser]

Speaking as an Urtext fanatic, I'd rather see the original slurring, however bizzare or unconventional it may be to modern standards. If so much has to be changed in order to bring a score into "modern" standards there perhaps is some method in the old slurring. It might be easier, and ultimately more instructive, simply to explain how to interpret the original phrasings to the performer. As for grace-note notations, I think it is more important to explain if they should be on or before the beat, and if on-the-beat, how long they should last. Doing more than this risks losing stylistic subtleties.

For example, until the advent of modern critical editions Haydn's symphonies and quartets suffered from changes in string phrasing instituted by 19th century editors trying to hammer his music into then-modern string performance style. They ignored the idiosyncratic note groupings found in Haydn's autograph scores (assuming they even had access to them) and which now are seen and heard as hallmarks of his style. Some of these scores are available, for better or worse, at IMSLP.

--Sixtus