I've acquired a copy of Gilbert Kaplan's fairly rare and elaborate presentation of facsimiles of the autograph MSS of the Adagietto of Mahler's 5th symphony as well as a facsimile of the movement as copied by Alma Mahler (which differs from the autograph in several significant respects). There is also a book discussing the facsimiles and arguing for a quicker-than-typical tempo for the movement, as it is a musical love-letter to Alma. I assume the book would be TB. The facsimiles have copyright dates of 1992 and come from the originals in the Morgan and NY Public libraries. The music in the facsimiles is of course PD and their contents have been subsumed into the latest critical edition of the piece (ed Kubik). But they are fascinating documents on their own. Would they be TB too?
--Sixtus
Mahler Adagietto facsimiles
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sbeckmesser
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Re: Mahler Adagietto facsimiles
If it looks like Alma Mahler added possibly original material to her copy, then I think it would be best to avoid putting it here as editorial credit could be claimed, and she died only in 1964. The autograph MSS would be fine to upload, and would not have to be blocked at all; first publication rights obviously can't be claimed (since the work had been published over 80 years before), and of course no one contributed to it but Mahler himself. The 1992 copyright date for the facsimiles can pretty safely be ignored, since they are just reprints - or was anything added by Kaplan?
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Starrmark
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Re: Mahler Adagietto facsimiles
KGill,
You mentioned "first publication rights." This is a question about first publication rights, not about Mahler's Adagietto.
If a facsimile manuscript for a 19th C. score (never before published) was published in 2008, and an edited typset edition of the same work is published in 2011, can the edited typset publication claim first publication rights for copyright protection. In other words, does the publication of a facsimile manuscript count as the first publication? Are there first publication rights in the US for 19th C. works first published now?
MS
You mentioned "first publication rights." This is a question about first publication rights, not about Mahler's Adagietto.
If a facsimile manuscript for a 19th C. score (never before published) was published in 2008, and an edited typset edition of the same work is published in 2011, can the edited typset publication claim first publication rights for copyright protection. In other words, does the publication of a facsimile manuscript count as the first publication? Are there first publication rights in the US for 19th C. works first published now?
MS
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pml
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Re: Mahler Adagietto facsimiles
Mark,
you might want to make your hypothetical question a little more specific (or better still, open a new thread rather than bring it up tangentially to this one). The point about the Mahler is that the work’s been published for 100 years. You’re asking whether there are editio princeps rights in the US for something that has never been published in any form? Not protected if the author has been dead longer than 70 years. The typeset in 2011 can’t claim those rights if a facsimile went out in 2008.
(Exception: adding original editorial matter to a never-before-published work. But you said facsimile, so I'll interpret that as “no editorial intervention”.)
Some of this is covered here
Cheers, Philip
you might want to make your hypothetical question a little more specific (or better still, open a new thread rather than bring it up tangentially to this one). The point about the Mahler is that the work’s been published for 100 years. You’re asking whether there are editio princeps rights in the US for something that has never been published in any form? Not protected if the author has been dead longer than 70 years. The typeset in 2011 can’t claim those rights if a facsimile went out in 2008.
(Exception: adding original editorial matter to a never-before-published work. But you said facsimile, so I'll interpret that as “no editorial intervention”.)
Some of this is covered here
Cheers, Philip
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Carolus
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Re: Mahler Adagietto facsimiles
A few observations on the application of editio princeps in this case:
Mahler's 5th symphony, including the "Adagietto" movement, was published more than a century ago. For the EU's editio princeps to apply, it would have to be a radically different version of the work, not just differing in details - even significant details. It is highly unlikely that any manuscript version is actually protected under the formal copyright law (thought it might fall under the absurd laws which have been enacted to give libraries and manuscript owners a de-facto type of copyright over "unique" items). BTW, the German cousin to this type of law - which prohibited reprints of public domain works until the work had been out of print for fifty years, was struck down by the German supreme court for conflicting with the copyright laws. Hopefully, there will soon be a legal challenge to claims of de-facto copyright on the public domain by manuscript owners and archives - many of whom are even publicly-funded (to add insult to injury).
In Canada, the same basic rule applies. The work was performed and printed long ago. The fifty-year term for first publication would not apply unless it was actually a different work which had never been performed. Moreover, the unpublished works of composers dead over 50 years basically entered the Canadian public domain on 1/1/2003 (just as in the USA).
In the USA, all unpublished works of composers dead over 70 years entered the public domain on 1/1/2003. Even if you take the position that this was a totally different version of the work which was heretofore unpublished (a very dubious position to take), it is ineligible for copyright protection unless an editor has added original and unique material to the work as a whole.
That said, any original material added by Alma Mahler (d. 1964) would be subject to copyright in Canada, the USA, and the EU - as KGill has already mentioned.
Mahler's 5th symphony, including the "Adagietto" movement, was published more than a century ago. For the EU's editio princeps to apply, it would have to be a radically different version of the work, not just differing in details - even significant details. It is highly unlikely that any manuscript version is actually protected under the formal copyright law (thought it might fall under the absurd laws which have been enacted to give libraries and manuscript owners a de-facto type of copyright over "unique" items). BTW, the German cousin to this type of law - which prohibited reprints of public domain works until the work had been out of print for fifty years, was struck down by the German supreme court for conflicting with the copyright laws. Hopefully, there will soon be a legal challenge to claims of de-facto copyright on the public domain by manuscript owners and archives - many of whom are even publicly-funded (to add insult to injury).
In Canada, the same basic rule applies. The work was performed and printed long ago. The fifty-year term for first publication would not apply unless it was actually a different work which had never been performed. Moreover, the unpublished works of composers dead over 50 years basically entered the Canadian public domain on 1/1/2003 (just as in the USA).
In the USA, all unpublished works of composers dead over 70 years entered the public domain on 1/1/2003. Even if you take the position that this was a totally different version of the work which was heretofore unpublished (a very dubious position to take), it is ineligible for copyright protection unless an editor has added original and unique material to the work as a whole.
That said, any original material added by Alma Mahler (d. 1964) would be subject to copyright in Canada, the USA, and the EU - as KGill has already mentioned.