Composer Names – Misspellings and Diacritics

L'alto merveilleux · Post by **L'alto merveilleux** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:34 pm

I have noticed several composer names that are incorrect, misspelled, missing diacritics or are a combination of spellings from different languages.

Incorrect:
Blumenthall, Jos.de >> Blumenthal, Joseph de
Gluck, Cristoph Willibald >> Gluck, Christoph Willibald
Webern, Anton >> Webern, Anton von

Other names to consider changing:
Biber (von), Heinrich Ignaz Franz >> Biber, Heinrich Ignaz Franz von
Bréville (de), Pierre
Schoenberg, Arnold >> Schönberg, Arnold
What is IMSLP policy concerning "de", "von", etc.? De Vilbac, Renaud is appropriately alphabetized under "V".

Combinations:
Dussek, Jan Ladislav >> Dusík, Jan Ladislav (Original Czech Name) << Dussek, Johann Ladislaus (German Spelling)
Neruda, Franz >> Neruda, František (Original Czech Name)
Vanhal, Johann Baptist >> Vaňhal, Jan Křtitel (Original Czech Name) << Wanhal, Johann Baptist (German Spelling)
Vaňhal may also be searched for under the German spelling Wanhal. Is it possible to link different spellings to the same composer page?

Diacritics:
Hubay, Jenö >> Hubay, Jenő
Kodaly, Zoltan >> Kodály, Zoltán
Krenek, Ernst >> Křenek, Ernst
Martinu, Bohuslav >> Martinů, Bohuslav Jan
Novácek, Ottokar >> Nováček, Ottokar
Pichl, Vaclav >> Pichl, Václav
Smetana, Bedrich >> Smetana, Bedřich
Tomasek, Vaclav Jan >> Tomášek, Václav Jan
Vranicky, Pavel >> Vranický, Pavel
Ysaye, Eugene >> Ysaÿe, Eugène
Ysaye, Theo >> Ysaÿe, Théo -- or Ysaÿe, Théophile

Post by **Hobbypianist** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:04 pm

to add some more:

Schubert, Franz (Dresden) -> Schubert, François or Schubert, Franz Anton (der Jüngere)

Jensen, Adolph -> Jensen, Adolf

Gruenfeldt, Alfred -> Grünfeld, Alfred

Kayser, H.E. -> Kayser, Heinrich Ernst

Koessler, Hans -> Koessler, Hans von

Chopin, Frederic -> Chopin, Frédéric

Anglebert. d', Jean-Henry -> Anglebert d', Jean-Henry
(remove point after name)

Beach, Amy (Mrs. H. H. A.) -> Beach, Amy Marcy Cheney
(lots of her works were published under Mrs. H.H.A. Beach, but that's not the correct name.)

Bonis, Mel -> Bonis, Mélanie
(Mel Bonis was only pseudonym!)

Well, change of names shouldn't be a problem as soon as the new page mover is introduced.

But what about the middle name of composers? according to the guide for creating composer pages it should be then:

Schubert, Franz -> Schubert, Franz Peter
Chopin, Frédéric -> Chopin, Frédéric François
Loewe, Carl -> Loewe, Johann Carl Gottfried
Stenhammar, Wilhelm -> Stenhammar, Carl Wilhelm Eugen

....I must admit that it looks strange in this way since they are well known only under one given name.

Hobbypianist

Post by **Leonard Vertighel** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:10 pm

Hobbypianist wrote: Anglebert. d', Jean-Henry -> Anglebert d', Jean-Henry

I'd rather expect that to be "d'Anglebert, Jean-Henry".

Post by **Hobbypianist** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:23 pm

then also

Albert, Eugen d' -> d'Albert, Eugen

will there be any problems with correct order? d'Albert should be listed under A!

Post by **Leonard Vertighel** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:12 pm

I believe that the software can be set up to put it in the correct order. In the worst case, I'd suggest "Anglebert, Jean-Henry d'". To me, "Anglebert d', Jean-Henry" looks more like a random permutation...

scottorr · Post by **scottorr** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:27 pm

I thought there was some method one could use to have the name print as "d'Albert, Eugen" but be categorized under the A of Albert. That to me makes the most sense.

Post by **imslp** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:31 pm

There is

Currently 'La ' is already moved to the end of the title; I'd just have to add d' and any other prefix necessary.

Lyle Neff · Post by **Lyle Neff** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:56 pm

Didn't Schoenberg adopt that spelling himself, at last after moving to the U.S.?

Website · Post by **pml** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:24 am

You're absolutely correct, Lyle. Dual nationality, or long residency in a country other than one's birth, makes the choice some of names arbitrary. As well as Schönberg, to choose the German or English spelling of Händel?

Add to the list of problems:

Di Lasso, Orlando -> Lassus, Orlande de

Although the Italianate form of Lassus' name was once popular, there is formal recognition that Lassus was Flemish. Also, Lassus should be sorted under L, not D!

Spelling mistake, and missing a von besides:

Gluck, Cristoph Willibald -> Gluck, Christoph Willibald von

Inconsistency of French names given in full, or part, for well-known composers: e.g.

Berlioz, Louis Hector -> Berlioz, Louis-Hector
Debussy, Claude -> Debussy, Achilles-Claude

IMAO, there is so little risk of confusion that Berlioz should simply be given as Hector, while Debussy remains as Claude. If the decision is to go with the full names, then I would argue the hyphen needs to be included.

Whether full names are used or not seems to be a vexed issue: why Antonin Leopold Dvorak (excuse no diacriticals) but not Edvard Hagerup Grieg? Each is known more commonly by their first name, so why is Leopold more deserving a name than Hagerup?

Regards, Philip

Post by **imslp** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:45 am

At the moment how much of the full name used seems rather to depend on who created the page. One of the reasons I haven't said much about this is that at times it is extremely hard to say. For example, Mozart had 20something names (and there is actually someone I know who can say all of them without making a mistake!), do we list them all? (Obviously not.

)

For me, name is just something to identify who I am. I don't really care what people call me as long as I know that I am being called. Of course, there are people who care, and I would love to comply if anyone knows that a composer insists on using one form of his/her name. Otherwise, because there is no single answer to this naming issue, I'd rather not make IMSLP contributors worry unnecessarily about this

Plus, even real libraries have naming issues... and sometimes worse since there are multiple names that are actually in the database. At least on IMSLP there is only one entry

In any case, I have had a composer renaming special page in planning for a while now... so do expect this soon

Though, if someone could let me borrow some time that'd be nice

I'll make sure to return it... sometime

(ok I suck at jokes I know)

Post by **Leonard Vertighel** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:55 am

A few thoughts:

I agree that we should not worry excessively when there are several possible alternatives (redirects for the search engines might come in handy here). I do think however that we should correct spellings that are to be considered simply wrong. To put it bluntly: the name may be still recognizable, but it makes us look stupid. Also, if a certain form is generally used nowadays, I think we should go with that.

That said, I'm not even sure if a composer renaming special page would be a good thing - if people started "edit warring" over this, it could become a real mess. Maybe it's not a bad thing that renaming a composer page is a bit of work (it should also be possible to teach it to 5Y).

Generoso · Post by **Generoso** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:18 am

We could just put an "Alternate Spelling" on the Composer page such as

http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Davydov%2C_Karl

His name is also spelled:
Karl Davidov
Karl Juljewitsch Dawidow
Charles Davidoff
Carl Davidoff
Карл Юльевич Давидов

This way if someone is searching for a name it will come up in the search whichever way they spell it. They do this in a similar fashion in Wikipedia.

pierre.chepelov · Post by **pierre.chepelov** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:20 am

Correct Russian spelling for Davydov is Давыдов, not Давидов - that's why there's a y in a modern romanization.

Also: Mendelssohn, Felix --> Mendelssohn-Bartholdy, Felix

Generoso · Post by **Generoso** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:41 am

You are right the spelling is Давыдов (By the way I've corrected it on the page, my russian is null) ...but that is my point. If someone was looking just for Davidoff they would not find it if only Davydov was listed. I have three different pieces of his in front of me and they are all spelled Davidoff in the printed editions. Therefor it would be wise to put all different spellings on the Composer (Category......) page so that it would be easier to find for anyone looking.

By the way if I do a search in Google for "Davidoff imslp" the first on the list is the IMSLP page. Thats great (even though the name of the page is spelled Davydov)!!

Thanks for your help with the russian. BTW

Post by **Leonard Vertighel** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:02 pm

Generoso wrote:Therefor it would be wise to put all different spellings on the Composer (Category......) page so that it would be easier to find for anyone looking.

Alternate spellings are a pain. The drawback of adding them to the composer category page is that it would get quite crowded. If we want to try it nonetheless, there are a few possibilities to mitigate the negative impact:

- Make the links look different, e.g. gray italic/oblique instead of blue roman.
- Use an additional category to have the option to enable/disable the listing of alternate spellings in the composer category page (via category intersection).

Both should be easy to accomplish with the current software.