Add instrumentation to composer page?

[VictorEijkhout]

It would be convenient to me if the works on a composer page had their instrumentation added. It would save me a great deal of clicking.

Victor.

[KGill]

Not only do they have their own special field on each page ('Instrumentation', down at the bottom), but we have an extensive tagging system that aims to classify every single work by instrumentation, making them pretty easy to sort. For instance, if you want to find works for string quartet by, say, Beethoven, you would do the following:
1. Go to his composer category page
2. Click on 'Show works by type/instrumentation'
3. Go down to the section labeled 'Chamber-Instrumental' and click the [focus] button
4. Find 'For 2 violins, viola, cello' in the left column and click 'show pages' in the same row
This holds true for every single composer page on the site, although keep in mind that not every work page has been categorized in this way yet

[VictorEijkhout]

This holds true for every single composer page on the site, although keep in mind that not every work page has been categorized in this way yet

Thanks. Found it. Though I'm sure Jakob Nielsen would have something to say about how easy it is to find that option. (To be precise: it is sandwitched between mystifying option -- really, what is a table of contents for? you just scroll through that page; even with Beethoven you don't need a table of contents -- and clearly irrelevant option -- add a piece to this page? I'm not a contributor, I'm a user.

Victor.

[NLewis]

What if a regular user wants to add a score to the page? Table on contents is actually very useful for some of the larger work pages.

[VictorEijkhout]

What if a regular user wants to add a score to the page?

How many regular users add scores versus download? I'm guessing less than 1 in a hundred. 1 in a thousand wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm not saying that the option shouldn't be there, just saying that the most used options should be most visible.

Table on contents is actually very useful for some of the larger work pages.

I wasn't talking about a work page: I was talking about composers. Even for Beethoven that's only about two screens. Scrolling down to the letter M for Mondschein is probably faster than finding the letter M in the toc and clicking on it.

Anyway.

Victor.

[KGill]

What if a regular user wants to add a score to the page?

Well, I guess he meant that even when you're logged out you still get the link to add a new piece, which would serve no purpose. It could definitely be taken out - but I completely agree with you about the TOC, which is extremely useful especially for composers like Beethoven with hundreds of pages. That isn't going anywhere

How many regular users add scores versus download? I'm guessing less than 1 in a hundred. 1 in a thousand wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm not saying that the option shouldn't be there, just saying that the most used options should be most visible.

One other thing to consider is that having a link prominently displayed to add new works could actually encourage more people to contribute, because it makes the site look a lot more accessible.

[steltz]

Victor, you have posted a similar question in a different topic within this forum. The difference is that in this one, you have specified the composer's page rather than the work page for the individual piece. Since they are so similar, I am going to delete the reply from the other one, and add my answer here. KGill has answered much of it, but I just want to add that many of the work pages are missing instrumentation as well.

Since the pages are usually constructed by the person who does the initial upload, it is up to them to insert this, but don't always. A lot of us who do admin or tagging add it where we can, but I know the list of works still to be done is long. Adding the information into this field is time consuming, because files have to be downloaded first to see what is in the score.

Also be aware that for some works we will never have the orchestration, particularly where the only surviving edition is an arrangement. The arrangements header will give the instrumentation for the arrangement itself, but the actual "Instrumentation" field is for the original version. There are some works that are here in the arrangement version only (or piano/vocal score), and no one can find the original instrumentation.

This type of instrumentation problem is going to be a small number, but I just had to mention that they do exist.

In the meantime, if you have time and want to get involved, you could help by inserting instrumentation where you find pages that need it. A good example of formatting would be: http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.6,_Op ... ,_Pyotr%29.

Or:

Orchestra: piccolo, 3 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets (A), 2 bassoons + 4 horns (F), 2 trumpets (A, B{{flat}}), 3 trombones, tuba + timpani, cymbals, bass drum, tam-tam (ad lib.) + strings

In other words, score order, with the keys inserted for any transposing instrument. The italics are done with two single quotes on either side, and the format for the flat and sharp signs are done with {{flat}} and {{sharp}} (which isn't showing as a flat here, but will on the wiki!).

[pml]

Adding the information into this field is time consuming, because files have to be downloaded first to see what is in the score.

And even more time consuming, with some full scores you are obliged to examine every single page of the score to obtain a complete survey of the instrumentation. (The rarer percussion instruments, in particular, might for example be used just once in a long score. The phrase “blink and you miss it” would well apply.)

[steltz]

@Philip: (confession) sometimes, if we don't have the full score I look on Free Library of Philadelphia, under the attitude that mostly accurate instrumentation is better than no instrumentation. They frequently have obscure pieces, and they also give instrumentations, but they don't give the keys for the transposing instruments, and I'm sure any percussion instrument that isn't on page 1 isn't there. Still, for an orchestra looking for things that only have double winds, it would at least help for that.

(public announcement) -- anyone that spots mistakes in the instrumentations is welcome to post the problem and it will be fixed . . . .

[VictorEijkhout]

Victor, you have posted a similar question in a different topic within this forum. The difference is that in this one, you have specified the composer's page rather than the work page for the individual piece.

Actually, in the other thread I was asking for instrumentation to be vislble on the list of new pages.

Context: I regularly lead a recorder ensemble and I play recorder with one or two other people. There should really be a quick way for me to see "have any new recorder pieces been uploaded".

I just want to add that many of the work pages are missing instrumentation as well.

Why isn't instrumentation a compulsory field when someone uploads a composition? I realize that giving the detailed orchestration of a Rimsky-Korsakof piece is going to be a bear, but in that just knowing that it's for "orchestra" rather than "piano 4-handed" is very informative. And that's 10 characters of typing, two seconds work.

Since the pages are usually constructed by the person who does the initial upload, it is up to them to insert this, but don't always.

Make it a required field?

Also be aware that for some works we will never have the orchestration

I wonder if we're talking from different contexts. I'm about to upload a bunch of my compositions, and they're all "recorder & continuo". or "two recorders and continuo". Takes 2 seconds to type, no trouble at all. So my perspective is from a amateur / chamber musician. Are you thinking that every piece here is some complicated orchestral score for which the precise instrumentation is needed (why? Isn't "orchestra" or "wind ensemble" plenty informative?) which is going to be a lot of work.

And I also wonder who you think the users of this archive are. Coming from the Werner Icking archive, my view of a user is a musician who is looking for a piece to play. Meaning that the most important bit of information about a piece is: "Is it for my instrument". And this information is often (as in the list of new pieces) the hardest to find. So what's your view of the typical visitor here. What do they come looking for?

Victor.

[steltz]

I understand where you are coming from, but there are many things to balance -- one would be the amount of clutter on any given page. Some of the instrumentations are very long, especially large orchestral works. The recent additions page runs in two columns, the left for sheet music, and the right for recordings. The other admins can also share their views, but one point to be discussed is that adding instrumentations to the short descriptions (at the moment I think only the title is used) would mean that perhaps only 20% of the works currently on that page would fit with all the extra lines. Already, I find that if more than 100 works have been uploaded in one day, the excess drops off the end of the page. So there is a space/clutter issue.

As to making instrumentation a requirement, If I remember correctly (admins who have been around longer than I have can correct this if need be), there was a conscious decision early on to make uploading easy, in order to encourage people to do it. If the requirements for uploading are onerous or complicated, less people will donate their time to uploading. It certainly makes my job easier if the instrumentation is there, but I understand the rationale behind not making too many fields required. And actually, the shorter ones to type are usually the ones that are there -- I think it's mostly orchestra pieces that are missing. Of course, these are the ones that take longer to find and type in, and they would also be the ones that would cause most of the clutter. (And believe me, having worked on more than 10,000 work pages since the start of the tagging project, I am well aware that not all of the pieces here are orchestral.)

As to who the users are, I would imagine that only a few check back frequently to see what's been uploaded recently, and if someone is only going to check every couple of months or so, the recent additions list is probably not the most efficient way to do it.

Do any of the other admins want to weigh in on the feasibility of this, and whether the disadvantages can be worked out?

[VictorEijkhout]

This holds true for every single composer page on the site, although keep in mind that not every work page has been categorized in this way yet

Ok, now I understand what you mean by this. You mean that even if a work has the instrumentation filled in, you still don't display it because that instrumentation has not been categorized. See for instance http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:CategoryW ... vid_Warin/

His works have the instrumentation specified, but clicking on "by instrumentation" will not display this actual instrumentation, but only the fields out of some classification scheme this site is using.

I'll restate my initial suggestion: it would be great if on a composer's page the instrumentation of the works was listed. Rather than making me jump though hoops that don't even display the information that I want and that is there.

I imagine that a composer page is mostly automatically generated from some database query. In that case it should be no hardship to add the instrumentation field to the query and display that parenthetically after the work's title.

Victor.

[KGill]

I imagine that a composer page is mostly automatically generated from some database query. In that case it should be no hardship to add the instrumentation field to the query and display that parenthetically after the work's title.

IMSLP does not use any sort of database structure, which will probably make this more difficult to implement than one might assume. In fact, I believe the entire underlying software would have to be rewritten; the titles in the composer category are displayed that way because they are the titles of the work pages in that category, which means that the only way to get what you want would be to change every page title to include the instrumentation - which, needless to say, is not going to happen. It has been proposed before that there should be some sort of JavaScript or something that would enable one to 'preview' a work's instrumentation before one actually clicks on it; I guess this wouldn't be impossible to do, though it might be difficult.