Request to add in Sub Musical Genres (or styles) in Time Period

[Sallen112]

This is an issue and a request that the other admins have been asking about and some users on the main site for some time now and I am willing now to make a thread about this request/issue. The biggest problem with the Time Period is that the system divides up each composer by one period but doesn't incorperate more period for a particular composer for example like Beethoven would be a transitional period/style composer and modern day composers designate various pieces in their repertoire by say baroque, classical, romantic etc., when the composer is clearly a modern composer and the pieces should reflect their category page as such. So the composer would be writing in a neo-baroque or neo-classical, etc. What can we do to solve this issue possibly? Please discuss below!

Here is the Time Period page on the main site I am referring too: http://imslp.org/wiki/Browse_people_by_time_period

Update 03/31/16: Been a while since we have updated this thread, probably should post our current list here:

Ancient (before ca.800 AD)

1. Ancient Chinese
2. Ancient Egyptian
3. Ancient Greek
4. Ancient Indian
5. Ancient Roman
6. Ancient Mesopotamian

Medieval (ca.800-1400)

1. Ars nova (France: Late Medieval Style)
2. Ballata
3. Canon ?
4. Chant (Plainsong) ?
5. Early Medieval
6. Estampie ?
7. Geisslerlieder (Germany: Late Medieval Style)
8. Gregorian chant ?
9. High Medieval
10. Late Medieval
11. Polyphony (Organum) ?
12. Manneristic (Ars subtilior: Late Medieval Style)
13. Motet ?
14. Madrigal (Trecento)* ?
15. Saltarello*
16. Trecento (Italy: Late Medieval Style)

Renaissance (1400-1600)

1. Early Renaissance
2. Late Renaissance
3. Madrigal (Trecento)* ?
4. Saltarello*

Baroque (1600-1760)

1. Early Baroque
2. High Baroque
3. Rococo (Galante)
4. Empfindsamer Stil

Classical (1730-1820)

1. Rococo / Galante
2. Empfindsamer Stil
3. High Classical
4. Late Classical

Romantic (1815-1920)

1. Early Romantic
2. Late Romantic
3. Nationalistic*
4. Historic*
5. Post-Romantic
6. Impressionistic

20th Century (ca.1900-2000)

1. Impressionistic
2. Primitivistic
3. Expressionistic
4. Polytonalistic
5. Atonal
6. Serialistic
7. Eclectic (Polystylistic)
8. Modalistic
9. Jazz*
10. Historic*
11. Nationalistic*
12. Aleatoric
13. Minimalism

21st Century (ca.2000-Present)

1. Aleatoric
2. Minimalistic
3. Jazz*
4. Historic*
5. Nationalistic*
6. Eclectic (Polystylistic)
7. Postmodern

Styles spanning eras

1. Traditional (folk music)
2. African
3. Americas (Western Hemisphere)
4. Asian
5. Australian
6. European
7. Polynesian

• Historicism (19th century forward)
• Pseudo-Ancient
• Pseudo-Medieval
• Pseudo-Renaissance
• Pseudo-Baroque
• Pseudo-Classical
• Pseudo-Romantic

1. Jazz (20th century forward)
2. Ragtime
3. Stride
4. Big Band
5. Hot Jazz
6. Cool Jazz
7. Free Jazz

1. Non-Western Classical
2. Arabic
3. Chinese
4. Indian
5. Indonesian
6. Persian

[Carolus]

This has been a long-sanding issue. The first step is to create a list of styles. They are of course going to be tied to a period but hopefully in a less strict manner. Bizet's Symphony in C major is clearly written in imitation of its classical predecessors but nevertheless remains rooted in its time. This is even more the case for Prokofiev's Classcial Symphony. Then there are the series of styles referred to as neo-classical, neo-romantic, and neo-baroque emerging in the 20th century. Well the 20th century is a decade and a half in the past so what do you call a present-day item which consciously harkens back to a much earlier style? Pseudo-classical? Let the discussion begin….

[tim.willis1685]

I am wondering if is still necessary to have the "Piece Style" field for individual pieces, or could this just apply to composers. Very few composers changed their style midway through their career, but would there be a problem if such a composer (eg. Beethoven) were put in 2 time periods? Neo-Baroque pieces could be designated as such with some kind of tagging system. Just an idea, I'm not really sure how to solve the problem.

[Sallen112]

What about adding on to what Carolus said if we add a second genre (for transitional composer workpages) next to pages of the style that is attached currently to the page (we have now) but also would include the subgenre (like what tim said with adding in two genres)? I tried looking up on Wikipedia for info on a list of genres or styles but it was mixed in with our tagging system of genres on here. I think we should ignore composers that are mostly strictly in one style throughout there lifetime, just save time and effort and focus mainly on the transitional ones for now.

Can anyone start a list on here? I am afraid the list is going to be really huge and I am not sure I want to spend the time right now on it. For the long term of this site, we need to consider the fact that we are going to need to make this change at some point (if this site survives into the future, which I am hoping so!) because otherwise we will get people like Classicalfan2, who might want to change around pieces styles because of there own opinions on certain transitional composers like Beethoven, who have multiple genres and we will have to constantly have to tell them to stop changing this field around on workpages!

I can take some of what Carolus has mentioned and start a list...

[Sallen112]

Refer to the link above (In the OP) for the graph on each of the periods. Below will be our list of subgenres below (indented under each main genre is the sub-genre), feel free everybody to edit this list! (I couldn't figure out how to get the bullet-points to show up for the subgenres to be indented so I had to use the letters in the tools above the editbox of what they said):


Ancient

Medieval

Renaissance

Baroque

Classical

Romantic

1. Early Romantic
2. Mid-Romantic
3. Late Romantic
4. Impressionistic

Early 20th Century

1. Atonal
2. Eclectic (Pluralistic)
3. Expressionistic
4. Futuristic
5. Free dissonance and experimentalism
6. Jazz
7. Neo-Baroque
8. Neo-Classical
9. Modernistic
10. Post-romanticism

Modern

1. Historicism
2. Neo-Romantic
3. Minimalism
4. Modernistic
5. Polystylism
6. Postmodern
7. Pseudo-classical
8. Serialism

[Carolus]

That's a excellent start, here it is again with a few additions….

Ancient (0-476)

Medieval (476-1400)

Renaissance (1400-1600)

Baroque (1600-1760)

1. Early Baroque
2. High Baroque
3. Rococco / Galante
4. Empfindmaser Stil
5. Pre-Classical

Classical (1730-1820)

Romantic (1815-1920)

1. Early Romantic
2. Mid-Romantic
3. Late Romantic
4. Impressionistic

20th Century (c.1900-2000)

1. Atonal
2. Eclectic (Pluralistic)
3. Expressionistic
4. Futuristic
5. Free dissonance and experimentalism
6. Jazz
7. Modernistic
8. Neo-Baroque
9. Neo-Classical
10. Post-romanticism
11. Primitivism
12. Serialism

21st Century (c.2000-Present)

1. Aleatoric
2. Historicism
3. Jazz
4. Minimalism
5. Modernistic
6. Neo-Baroque
7. Neo-Classical
8. Neo-Romantic
9. Polystylism
10. Postmodern
11. Pseudo-classical
12. Serialism

[tim.willis1685]

Other late baroque styles could be "Galante" and "Empfindsamer Stil", or would these be covered by "Rococo"?. I see them as quite opposite movements with Galante being simplification of the Baroque style in preparation for the classical. The Empfindsamer style I see as baroque music taken to the extreme; it's rhetorical and ornate and was still strong in Northern Germany when the Viennese Classical was in full swing. This is how I think of this music, anyway. Could "Pre-Classical" be used somehow?

[Sallen112]

Add them to the list, do you know how to edit someone's elses post? its the little pencil symbol to the left of the X (delete post) icon.

Thanks, I think I worked it out Things can be merged/deleted after discussion. TW.

[Carolus]

I think one of the aspects we need to think about here is detaching the concept of style from the period or era in which a piece was written. To a certain extent there will always be a relationship, but simply looking at the periods presently termed "Early 20th century" (which I would propose be migrated into simply "20th century") and "Modern" shows the extent of the issue. The styles Neo-Baroque, Neo-Classical, and Neo-Romantic all had their beginnings in the 20th century and continue down to the present. I wonder if terms like Anachro-Renaissance, Anachro-Baroque, Anachro-Classical, Anachro-Romantic, and even Anachro-Impressionist might be employed as styles across a number of periods (with ''Pulcinella'' approaching its 100th birthday, the designation "Neo-Baroque" strikes one as odd - unless we're thinking in terms of planet lifespans). Works like Bizet's ''Symphony in C major'', Stavinsky's ''Pulcinella'' and others deliberately harken back to earlier music - anachronisms in a way (some more so than others, obviously). The Empfindsamer Still mentioned by Tim was the latest thing in the last decades of J.S. Bach's life (who was by then considered old-fashioned). It also falls in the tail end of the Baroque period - a long one (150 years) in contrast with the Classical era (75 years or so)

Another factor to keep in mind as we discuss this and add things is that we need to keep the final list down to around 25-30 terms so it will work properly with the "Add Work" template (with its pull-down menu for the required field).

[Sallen112]

Ok I added in the years for period genres sections (copied over from the Time Period Graph) and have changed over the "Early 20th Century" to just "20th Century" and changed "Modern" to "21st Century" (which would incorperate everything since the beginning of this century we are in) because I think combining both 20th Century and Modern into one list would be too huge of sub-genre terms to use in one list (possibly more than 30 terms that you are proposing). Like I said originally in this thread, couldn't we use possibly use when creating a workpage to list the main Music Genre (Baroque, Classical etc.) and its sub Genre (Latr Romantic, Pre-Classical etc.) on the same field like this: "Baroque ; Pre Classical"? Or maybe a new Piece/Style field like "Sub-style" or something of this nature right below the "Piece/Style" field right now? Also for us to consider in the decades and the end of this century to come is that there might be new forms of music that popup in the 21st century and we should be prepared to add these new styles into the list possibly. Also I think it would be OK to overlap certain sub-genres through periods (as we have for 20th Century and 21st Century now) because as you said Carolus with both the 20th and Modern (originally) is that the Genres continue until today, but we should keep a majority of terms strictly to the 20th Century and some to overlap into the 21st century.

[Sallen112]

Tim in the Baroque section, wasn't the Rococo style also used throughout the Classical period? Maybe we should include this in there two. This going along my proposal to listing both the main genre and the sub-genre in the field.

[steltz]

We are going to need some definitions here, so ordinary mortals can see what some of these things mean. I've been involved in professional music for 40 years, and "Anachro- [style]" was a new one to me. Becky

[tim.willis1685]

I feel like I've missed a few vital points here, so I have a few questions.

Am I right in thinking that these new categories will be applied to individual work pages and NOT to composer pages? If so, will there be a way of "batch editing" the works of 99% of composers whose style remained the same throughout their career? And the works of transitional composers (like Beethoven) will have to be individually evaluated?

One problem that I'm not sure will be solved with this system are the disputes (maybe too strong a word - I mean back-and-forth editting) that occur on the work pages of a few composers. I've noticed this in particular with CPE Bach, F Benda and a few others. Some people are of the opinion that these are baroque composers (based on style?) and others believe they are classical (based on death dates? and other things probably). If we decide that their sub-style is "Empfindsamer", then their works would be placed in the "Baroque" category. I would be happy with this outcome, but would everyone else?

On what Steltz said; I would have no idea how to discern the difference between most of the 20th - 21st century styles but I'd be comfortable with baroque and classical. When the system is ready to use, would it be possible to have a few people dedicated to each time period to make these decisions? I still wouldn't be confident that I could make the decisions which everyone agrees with, so it would be nice to be able to consult with others before decicions are made. Do we think that would be feasible?

Have I made a mountain out of a molehill?

[Sallen112]

I am hoping there will be a way to "batch edit" as you say for the absolute majority of composers on here

I hate to say this but I think with this solution that I proposed now is the best solution at the moment and progress made on the very general and vague time period/piece style system we already have in place to add in the more specific musical styles for each period. Even though if we might have to edit each page manually in the time periods field, which I hope not to do for every single workpage out there. If we will have to do this, I think this will be a new long-term project to go through every workpage, just like the whole tagging project we finally caught up this summer on. I know I sound "crazy" for doing this, but keep in mind everyone, to echo off of the new post that user "IMSLP" wrote in the admin forum a couple days ago about the long term of the site to come in the coming decades, we will have years to update every workpage with this new system I am proposing, which would be far more specific to each and every workpage and composer.

In terms of the "20th/21st century" renamings for the "Early 20th Century/Modern" periods, this is not set in stone yet, it is just a suggestion right now and we most like need more discussion on how to reorganize this period of time from ca.1900 to present day and beyond. The only issue, as I pointed out already is that Carolus said that we need to have at least 25-30 sub-styles for each major time period and I think combining both the 20th and 21st century would make us have to cut a number of sub-styles in the end from the list, we should consider as many sub-styles for both as possible. Keep also in mind, we need to consider possibly new styles of music that might crop up later this century, that is why we should save a few new openings for the new sub-styles that might appear later on, even though it might be unlikely there might be any new sub-styles at all.

@ Tim can you answer the question about the Rococo style if it was also part of the Classical period or was it mainly a late-baroque period style and did not carry over?

[tim.willis1685]

I think Rococo is the same as Galante - Late baroque introducing classical elements.

I think it's a good system, I just wasn't sure how that one problem would be solved. Probably with lots of discussion do you think?