Requesting for the Full Scores of Chôros No.6 and Chôros No.12 by Villa-Lobos

[MartinSandwich]

I was recently fascinated by the rich and colourful orchestration by Villa-Lobos, especially his Chôros No.6 and No.12. Does anyone have the full score of these 2 works? I would really like to study them.

Much appreciated!

[Eric]

I believe no.6 (1928) may have waited to be published by Eschig until as late as 1987. There are at least 5 libraries in the US one can borrow the 178-page miniature full score from, but it is, I believe, unlikely to appear on IMSLP for quite some time for copyright reasons (I may be mistaken). No.12 for orchestra and additional band (225 pages) was published earlier, in 1986.

[DBMiller]

Provided that they were performed in 1971 or earlier, they are OK to upload.

However, these pieces were definitely published before 1987. I have an Eschig full score and parts for No.6 (full score says c1955; parts say c1967). The nonsense about different dates for the same edition is pretty common with Eschig — they often put new copyright dates on straight reprints. I would not be surprised if these are older than their claimed dates; the c1928 edition of No.10, for instance, was reprinted with c1972 claims. I still need to look for a copy of No.12.

In any case with these pieces having been performed before the requisite date, these can be uploaded. And I will upload my score/part sets when I am able.

[Eric]

Apologies, with iucat's Villa-Lobos site apparently down I need to check other sources than Worldcat (or find a book as authoritative as the old website more or less was. Worldcat, at any rate, gets no.10 right, but not 6 & 12. I should also have checked the individual Wikipedia pages on each of the 12:

No.12 : no.12 composed in 1925 (or begun then and completed closer to 1945), premiered in 1945 (Wikipedia: "It was premiered at Harvard University by the Boston Symphony Orchestra, conducted by the composer, on 21 October 1945 according to the official catalogue of the composer's works. However, this programme was announced for 23 February of that year, and a broadcast of the work by the BSO with Villa-Lobos conducting was made on Saturday, 24 February 1945. According to contemporary reports in the Daily Boston Globe, it was performed in Cambridge on 23 February and was to have been performed two more times at Symphony Hall on 23 and 24 February. At the time of the Boston premiere, Villa-Lobos said that he had written the work "for and in admiration of Serge Koussevitzky", whose Paris concerts he had attended in the 1920s." So yes, even the IUCat site was grain-of-saltish, to borrow Finnegan's Rainbow phrasing sort-of grandishly..., of course) -- published in 1986.

No.6: no.6 composed between 1926 and 1942, premiered 1942, published 1987 . If your score and parts are non-reprint first editions, then Wikipedia can be corrected. If they're reprints in which an earlier copyright is claimed, this can be complicated (see - for example - Ropartz sym 2 ...)

[DBMiller]

Apologies, with iucat's Villa-Lobos site apparently down I need to check other sources than Worldcat (or find a book as authoritative as the old website more or less was. Worldcat, at any rate, gets no.10 right, but not 6 & 12. I should also have checked the individual Wikipedia pages on each of the 12:

No.12 : no.12 composed in 1925 (or begun then and completed closer to 1945), premiered in 1945 (Wikipedia: "It was premiered at Harvard University by the Boston Symphony Orchestra, conducted by the composer, on 21 October 1945 according to the official catalogue of the composer's works. However, this programme was announced for 23 February of that year, and a broadcast of the work by the BSO with Villa-Lobos conducting was made on Saturday, 24 February 1945. According to contemporary reports in the Daily Boston Globe, it was performed in Cambridge on 23 February and was to have been performed two more times at Symphony Hall on 23 and 24 February. At the time of the Boston premiere, Villa-Lobos said that he had written the work "for and in admiration of Serge Koussevitzky", whose Paris concerts he had attended in the 1920s." So yes, even the IUCat site was grain-of-saltish, to borrow Finnegan's Rainbow phrasing sort-of grandishly..., of course) -- published in 1986.

No.6: no.6 composed between 1926 and 1942, premiered 1942, published 1987 . If your score and parts are non-reprint first editions, then Wikipedia can be corrected. If they're reprints in which an earlier copyright is claimed, this can be complicated (see - for example - Ropartz sym 2 ...)

It is not really that complicated in the case of Eschig's 1987 claim. The c1955 copy I have is from the set of orchestral material (copies of which are relatively uncommon, compared to the miniature score). I believe the c1987 score is a miniature-score reprint of this very same edition. Eschig loves to add new copyright notices to literal copies (whether printed at a different size or not) — you see such things to this day. Otherwise, sometimes they claim that items they offer to the public for rental are not published — which isn't true. In any case, that is only a question related to US expiration date (since the Canadian status is settled either way). It is mysterious that the set of orchestral parts has a different date than the full score, though. (In any case, this claim of a later date on the parts is extraordinarily unlikely to hold up — the contents of the parts are all, after all, found in the full score!)

The Ropartz Symphony No.2 score is a quite different, especially since it is from after 1989. The question there, however, is more about what was or was not published previously, rather than whether or not the edition was original.

[DBMiller]

The full score for Chôros No.6 has been added. I will add the parts soon.

I'll note that the list of Villa-Lobos works we had on IMSLP already listed 1955/1987 as the publication date for this piece!

[KGill]

Absolutely incredible to have a full set of parts for a work like this, thank you! Uirapuru as well.

[Eric]

“The contents of the parts…”
That was the sound of a thousand editors saying, “hold my beer.” Legally true as no -creative- editorial work is usually involved (there are exceptions), but…

[DBMiller]

“The contents of the parts…”
That was the sound of a thousand editors saying, “hold my beer.” Legally true as no -creative- editorial work is usually involved (there are exceptions), but…

In the case of these Eschig scores, they're often actual reprints. Not to mention, 95 years (from 1955) is already a very long term of copyright.

[Eric]

I meant whether parts can be manually extracted from scores. Sometimes for certain clever values of manually, sometimes the need for the editor, as with collating the score, is more obvious.
Scores are for reading or conducting from, parts for playing from, and ambiguities (was that sharp meant to carry over? e.g.) one can get away with in a score are much less forgivable in parts.