Mahler: Symphony No.10

[Yagan Kiely]

Can anyone find me a bound score of the symphony that isn't AU$125 or there abouts? I'd like it a little cheaper...

That said I don't want just the adagio.

Preferable not this one, but begger can't be choosers.


On top of this, does anyone know of a recording of the 10th symphony that has not been realised? i.e. a recording of the short score (where applicable).

Thankyou

Yagan

[daphnis]

When you talk about finding a score are you asking for a score not completed by Cooke?

[Yagan Kiely]

Preferably, but either or.

[daphnis]

For a non-performing edition, see the Associated Music Publishers score revised and edited by Otto Jokl pub. 1951.

[Yagan Kiely]

Thankyou very much.

But... where would I start looking?

[daphnis]

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp ... em-_-Title

[Yagan Kiely]

Oh, it is that. Thankyou. I thought that was just the first movement.

[pml]

Hi Yagan,

the score Daphnis refers to is the Křenek arrangement, and has only the 1st movement (Adagio) and the 3rd (Purgatorio); it was prepared for a 1924 performance by Ernst Křenek with contributions from Franz Schalk, Alban Berg and Alexander Zemlinsky. In many respects the later editions surpass this:

Joseph Wheeler (1948–1965)
Deryck Cooke, assisted by Berthold Goldschmidt, Colin Matthews and David Matthews (1960, 1964, 1976, 1989)
Clinton Carpenter (1966)
Remo Mazzetti, Jr. (1989)
Rudolf Barshai (2000)
Nicola Samale and Giuseppe Mazzucca (2002)

I believe the Cooke edition (Associated Music Publishers, ISBN 0-571-51094-9), is available from Faber; Barshai's is the one linked above (Universal-Edition). I personally like the Cooke, and would like to hear the others. It is fairly useful in giving a short-staff reduction of passages from the sketches in movements four and five where there is no draft orchestral score available.

I'm one of the main authors of the Wikipedia article, though the nature of Wiki editing would make me want to pause before claiming all the errors there are my own!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_N ... 8Mahler%29

Regards, Philip

EDIT: To put the ř in Křenek

[daphnis]

Yes, the Cooke edition is available from Faber at the low, low cost of ~$150.

@pml, are there any scores available that are not completed by someone else? While I am not familiar to a great extent with the tenth symphony regarding how much Mahler actually put down, I would be interested to see just what he did write untouched.

[pml]

@daphnis: but consider, the low, low cost of ~$150 would be going to Faber and not U-E (bad luck for any royalties for Rudolf Barshai).

Two sets of facsimile copies of the Mahler sketches have been released. The first was a set published by the company of Paul Zsolnay, which gave the principal sketches, printed on an almost exactly reproduced series of folios and bifolios:

Movement 1 (Adagio) draft full score;
Movement 1 short score;
Movement 2 (Scherzo 1) draft full score;
Movement 3 (Purgatorio) draft full score;
Movement 3 short score;
Movement 4 (Scherzo 2) short score;
Movement 5 (Finale) short score; and
8 pages of miscellaneous sketch pages.

For instance, the draft full score of movement 1 consists of a double sheet (bifolio) as an outer folder, with 8 further bifolios inside; Mahler wrote on each side of these 8 sheets except for the last, so resulting in a continuous 31-page orchestral score of 279 bars; movement 2 is similar except Mahler ran to all but the last side of 10 bifolios, thus a continuous 39-page orchestral score of 522 bars. The draft full score of the Purgatorio is only 30 bars long, but there is enough material in the short score and 1 page of sketches to fashion a movement, albeit an uncharacteristically short one for Mahler, as most of the final section is given as a "da capo" with a short coda. The full score drafts are all one system to a page: 18 or 20 staves, in landscape format. The short score, sketches, and inserts are usually multiple systems per page.

The Zsolnay set accounted for most of the principal material, but significantly left many pages unpublished: in particular, the short score for movement 2, which is essential to any attempt at completion of it, since the draft full score is much patchier than either the first movement, or even the 30 bars of movement 3. (This may have some bearing on why the "Jokl" edition, i.e. Křenek's version, consists only of these two movements; even Cooke found it a considerable amount of work to do his completion of movement 2.) To address this shortcoming the International Gustav Mahler Society funded another publication including all of the pages produced by Zsolnay as well as most of the remaining short score, sketches, inserts and other pages; however, besides being of a slightly lesser quality in terms of printing, three or so pages of manuscript escaped inclusion in the set. These pages however appear in facsimile in the preface of the final version of Cooke's performing edition!

The University of Melbourne (where I work) has a copy of the Zsolnay set in the Hanson-Dyer Music Library, which used to be available for staff loan – so you can imagine I availed myself of the opportunity! They are now unfortunately included in the reserve collection, not to be loaned out!

Apparently U-E are looking for sponsors to underwrite publishing a complete set of typeset versions of all of the above:
http://www.gustav-mahler.org/gesamtausg ... chau-e.cfm

This would be functionally equivalent to what you asked, i.e. a typeset score, minus any attempt at completion

[daphnis]

Very informative! Thanks for all the great info. about this tenth symphony. I do hope to see a "complete" and unadulterated compilation of all Mahler's original materials for this symphony someday.

[ethan.rucinski]

Do you think maybe we can put in the Cooke III version of mahler 10?

[daphnis]

No, we can't, as his contributions are still protected everywhere in the world.

[sbeckmesser]

So are either the Zsolnay or the Mahler Gesellschaft facsimilies in the public domain? It's not clear from any of the above. If they are, they'd be good targets for IMSLP uploading.

--Sixtus

[pml]

Necromancing this old thread, as we now have a work page with downloadables: Symphony No.10 Huzzah!

Thanks very much to cypressdome for obtaining these from the BSB and ÖNB. I was a little worried the page would disappear without anything there! I’m a little bit upset about the ‘(unfinished)’ in the title however — we don’t normally include sobriquets or other incidental remarks about symphonies, even for other unfinished symphonies, like the various Schubert unfinisheds (when will someone manage to obtain a copy of the Weingartner 7th?!) or Bruckner 9. (And this page is PMLP495655 rather than the previous page that once existed for the work, PMLP242955, but meh.)

The Paul Zsolnay Verlag set is almost certainly PD in those places that have particular terms for posthumously published works with expiry set a finite time after first publication, as the set of manuscript facsimiles, including 116 pages of Mahler’s composing, was published 89 years ago. The exception, as usual, is the US with its infernal 95 year term, though it’s doubtful the compulsory renewal occurred in or around 1952. It likewise seems rather doubtful to me that the additional 40 or so pages published in 1967 by the Internationale Gustav Mahler Gesellschaft (IGMG) under the auspices of Erwin Ratz could possibly attract a full term as they are part of the same work which has a first publication date of 1924, but that’s very much vexed territory, so I’ll only reiterate that the Zsolnay set is a plum ripe for picking, and the only substantial omission from it was the short score draft of movement II. (Scherzo — Finale)

Of the manuscripts from the Bayerische Staatsbibliotek uploaded today, IMSLP #306984, the first large set of 21 pages consisting of the short score of movement I. (Adagio) was already included in the Zsolnay facsimiles, photographed at a prior stage to the pencilled annotations that apparently have been subsequently added by the librarians of the BSB.

The second and third uploads, IMSLP #306985 and #306986, effectively single pages, are two of the eighteen folios of older sketches and einlagen for the same movement; they were probably first published in the IGMG set in the late 60s.

The fourth upload IMSLP #306987 is a single unnumbered folio, which is the second page of the initial short score draft for movement III. (Purgatorio), showing the ‘Da capo’ and the orchestration indication ‘Tamtam’ on the final bar.

The fifth upload IMSLP #306988 is a first draft folio for movement IV. (Der Teufel tanzt es mit mir), but only six of the thirteen pages in the first draft were printed in the Zsolnay set I can’t confirm whether this was included or not without going and inspecting it.

I’ll update this comment once I’ve had time to look over the ten uploads from the ÖNB more thoroughly, but at a first glance:
IMSLP #307127, Mus.Hs.41000/1 — I / Adagio / Partitur — full score draft of first movement, 275 bars complete.
IMSLP #307128, Mus.Hs.41000/2 — II / 2. Scherzo - Finale / Partitur — full score draft of second movement, 521 bars complete, much patchier orchestration. (The number of bars cited in Wikipedia is wrong — the anacrucis bar is mistakenly counted as a ‘full’ bar.)
IMSLP #307129, Mus.Hs.41000/3 — III / Nro. 3 / Purgatorio oder [Inferno] — full and short score drafts of third movement (incomplete), with ?one folio of sketches
IMSLP #307130, Mus.Hs.41000/4 — IV / [lots of erased headings] / Der Teufel tanzt es mit mir / [etc.] — short score draft of fourth movement, complete
IMSLP #307131, Mus.Hs.41000/5 — V / Finale — short score draft of fifth movement, complete but omitting the first ending in B flat major (see below)
IMSLP #307132, Mus.Hs.41000/6 — 11 folios of sketches for first movement
IMSLP #307133, Mus.Hs.41000/7 — ?11 of the 12 folios of the short score draft of the second movement, along with 9 folios of earlier attempts at drafts/sketches.
IMSLP #307134, Mus.Hs.41000/8 — 10 folios of sketches for fourth movement
IMSLP #307134, Mus.Hs.41000/9 — 5 rejected folios of short score draft of fifth movement, incorporating all of the pages for the first ending in B flat major.
IMSLP #307136, Mus.Hs.37817 — 3 additional folios of sketches for first movement

When I researched this back in 2005/06 I had unfettered access to the Zsolnay set and borrowing abilities for the Cooke III score published by Faber, which notably included several facsimiles not included in either Zsolnay’s or IGMG’s sets. There are apparently about 165 pages of manuscript for the symphony total, so these 15 files look at a glance like they cover almost everything, but individual folios are certainly missing — the most important of which are folio 1 of the final short score draft for the Purgatorio, and possibly one folio from the final short score draft of the second movement.

Matching up what’s in the manuscripts

There were about five stages in Mahler’s composing and process prior to publication, which could be briefly described as:
1) first short score sketches;
2) einlagen (inserts) to provide ‘connective tissue’ or to work out details of texture and structure, if the first short score sketches did not provide a continuous draft of music;
3) a final short score draft (omitted only if the first stage involved no problems, which was not usually the case);
4) first full score draft (partitur); and
5) final full score draft/fair copy, suitable for the printer to copy and engrave.
Once published, Mahler would normally work from his conducting scores and make further refinements directly in the printed score as a result of rehearsal and performance.

None of the five movements reached stage 5 as I’ve summarised it above (albeit slightly inaccurately for the sake of simplicity and brevity). Movement I was the closest to being at the final stage of preparation, while movement IV probably the furthest from that point.

I. Adagio
Stage 1: 11 folios exist, all but one with roman numbering, usually the paper was only written on the recto side. 2 of them have been uploaded as IMSLP #306985 and #306986. None were published in the Zsolnay set.
Stage 2: 7 folios exist, unnumbered. None published in Zsolnay set.
Stage 3: 10 folios exist, arabic numbering, one folio (8) has several bars of sketch on the verso, the rest do not; folio 8 [bis] is an earlier draft of the folios now positioned on either side in the MS, 8 and 9. Published complete in Zsolnay set. All but three blank pages are in IMSLP #306984.
Stage 4: 8 bifolios exist, written on all sides except the last side of bifolio [8a], thus 31 pages of music and 1 page blank. Published complete in Zsolnay set, more or less identical with IMSLP #307127. This is very close to complete and was virtually on the point of readiness where Mahler could have proceeded to a stage 5 final full score draft had he lived. (This differs from the subsequent movement:)

II. Scherzo — Finale
Stages 1 and 2: 11 folios exist, some with roman numerals and one with both roman and arabic numbering, only one of which (numbered III) was published by Zsolnay. Some of the folios are inserts, whereas some are pages that were rejected for or refined in the second short score draft.
Stage 3: 12 folios exist, all numbered with (occasional variations on) roman numerals, all included in IMSLP #307133. None published in Zsolnay set.
Stage 4: 10 bifolios exist, written on all sides except the last side of bifolio 10, thus 39 pages of music and 1 page blank. Published complete in Zsolnay set, more or less identical with IMSLP #307128. This draft is much more patchily and incompletely scored than the first movement, which would make it impossible to attempt a faithful completion without the second short score draft, at the very least.

III. Nro 3. Purgatorio oder [Inferno]
Stage 1: 2 unnumbered folios exist, the first comprising the first 81 bars of the movement, the second the remainder. The first was published by Zsolnay; the second was not, and corresponds to the manuscript page in IMSLP #306987.
Stage 2: no inserts; Mahler apparently proceeded straight to complete short score draft:
Stage 3: 3 folios exist, all but the last with roman numerals. Published by Zsolnay.
Stage 4: 1 bifolio exists, of which Mahler wrote on the first two sides as far as bar 30. Published by Zsolnay.
IMSLP #307129 includes the first folio of the first short score draft, the three folios of the final short score draft, and the single bifolio of the partitur.

IV. Der Teufel tanzt es mit mir
Stages 1 and 2: 13 folios exist, of which only six were published in the Zsolnay set. I would need to consult Cooke III to check the status of these folios.
Stage 3: 12 folios exist, roman numbering from I to XI (with two folios, Xa and Xb). Published complete by Zsolnay, more or less identical with IMSLP #307130.

V. Finale
Stage 2: only 3 folios of inserts are known, one of which was published in the Zsolnay set. Mahler’s revision process was different in the case of this movement, in that he appears to have revised his existing draft rather than generating a new set of pages.
Stages 1 and 3: 6 bifolios and 1 folio, arabic numbering, 12 sides composed upon, 14 sides blank. Published complete by Zsolnay, more or less identical with IMSLP #307131 (stage 3) and IMSLP #307135 (stage 1). The order of pages is complicated: each of the bifolios have music written on the recto side only, except for bifolio 1 where only the outer leaf is used. The single folio is written on the recto side only, following the fourth bifolio. However, these pages essentially include two revisions of the Finale, ending in two different keys. The initial version would have used 1 to 5 from #307131 before concluding with the pages from IMSLP #307135, finishing in B flat major. The second version uses only the pages in
#307131, finishing in F sharp major.

If anyone wants a more detailed breakdown than that, including bar numberings, and orchestration of the partiturs of movements I and II — albeit sadly incomplete as I didn’t spend enough time to research all of the MS pages — then feel free to send me an e-mail. I’ll probably spend the next couple of days extensively revising my summation of the manuscripts. (philip.m.legge AT gmail DOT com)