IMSLP Buying "Orchestra Musician's" and entering i

Post by **kcleung** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:14 pm

from previous emails, I've learned that all "Orchestra Musician's" stuff are PD in USA (backed up by the state attorney (or something like that). (except the logos)

Currently most uploaded orchestral scores are unplayable because only full score is available but the parts are lacking.

To enable usabality (and therefore populatity of imslp.org), should we fast-track uploading of orchestral parts by using funds available to IMSLP.org to buy a copy of the entire set of "Orchestra Musician's" score for all instrument parts, strip its logo and upload all entries to IMSLP?

This total cost for all 10 currently-available volumes is about USD 2500

http://www.subitomusic.com/store/index. ... Path=4_124

which I hope imslp can afford and I strongly believe it can pay off very quickly as the orchestra entries in IMSLP become usable by conductors and this will make IMSLP well-known.

Post by **Yagan Kiely** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:09 am

This entire set costs about USD 2XXX, which I hope imslp can afford and I strongly believe it can pay off very quickly as the orchestra entries in IMSLP become usable by conductors and this will make IMSLP well-known.

Very unlikely, but if we set up an aggressive donation system their maybe a better chance.

Full scores are just as valuable as parts. Composers don't read parts, they read the entire score.

Post by **kcleung** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:13 am

True, conductors read full scores, but the conductor in my uni orchestra says that *players* need to read their parts! Otherwise they will be too busy turning pages and can't play. We would already have full score on IMSLP for many of the items in the collection (but not parts). For those in the OM collection that we don't have full score, we can easily get them off the library easily (miniature score or large version) and scan them while we process the OM entries. It is the *parts* which are difficult to get. full score is easy.

This is why we really need the parts for them to be *playable* in orchestras!

It would be too time-consuming for the players having to copy out their parts by hand from the full score.

With regard to an "aggresive donation system", how about if we allow more advertisements on our site? Also some universities / conservatoriums may be able to fund us?

The USD 2500 investment is only one-off and it saves a lot of man-hours required to scan the 250000+ pages of parts!! We are just buying the service of scanning the parts. (USD 1 for 1000 pages, which represents many hours of worth and each hour is near to nothing)

horndude77 · Post by **horndude77** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:08 am

I've heard that some universities have them available to their students. That would be an option with out spending a dime if someone has access.

Post by **kcleung** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:23 am

That's great! Should we set up a special sub-project to process the 10 volume of OM collections?

- First, the leaders of this group need to determine copyright status of each item and compile a copyright status table for this collection.

- then, we write to every current member / contributor in IMSLP that if their uni has access to the OM collection, then they can help out. We need to give them instructions about how to remove the OM trademarks properly.

- Each contributor register which work to take (has to be a complete work (i.e. all instruments for a composition) and upload all parts of a piece of work as one unit.

- Compliance officers then check each submitted item to ensure all trademarks are properly removed, then they can put the processed files on the site

Post by **Yagan Kiely** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:56 am

I don't personally want more advertising (I don't actually consider what we have advertising really). But contacting universities for 'grants' would be very good I believe. I'll see what I can do.

In regards to full vs parts. Both are just as important imo. If the scan is better or it is a different edition, the full score should be uploaded.

Post by **Yagan Kiely** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:15 am

That's great! Should we set up a special sub-project to process the 10 volume of OM collections?

Not yet. Something this big needs some research and planning beforehand.

One of the problems with parts, is they can quickly and easily make a wor's page cluttered and, basically, unusable. We would need to find a way of not having all the parts on the Work Page.

I'm going to email the non-existant (but clearly extremely busy) ghost of Feldmahler to talk about this. It is a worthy subject.

I'm sure quite a few uni's would be willing to donate some money for it - it's cheaper than buying it themselves.

Post by **Carolus** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:09 am

Over and above the not-insignificant cost (2500.00 USD), there's also the time-consuming task of processing the files so that all logos and assorted embedded metatags, etc. are removed. Yagan is correct, this would need to be a well-coordinated project.

Post by **kcleung** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:18 am

I agree with you that this sub-project does need careful planning. However this is also urgent as this would have a dramatic impact on the usabality of orchestral items in IMSLP.

With regards to the sheer size of the OM collection, I guess the best way to tackle is to treat it as a project like IMSLP itself (which handles *all* public domain works) and I am sure that this will be an order of magnitude larger than the OM collection!

However having said that, the subproject (which we treat it as a mini IMSLP project) needs a central committee to catalog the OM collection, determine copyright status of each work and recording existing fullscore / parts (in IMSLP) of each work, then draw up a list of TODO items.

Then this project can have a separate membership system which people have access to OM can apply and contribute (like the IMSLP model). The contributor will form the base of the pyrimid in the management system, responsible of removing logos (analagous to the current IMSLP system where contributors scan the work). I believe that removing logos is *much less* time consuming than scanning in each sheet!

then we have a layer of compliance officers (or admin who have rights to verify and load stuff in the current IMSLP system) to ensure all logos are properly removed) and with the central committee (which draws up TODO list, determine copyright and redesign / maintain the display / database system) at the top

I strongly feel that we must look at this subproject promptly and carefully.

Finally, should this discussion stay in this list or should it be moved to other places such as "scanning and PDF creation", "score request" or "feature request"?

Post by **Yagan Kiely** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:09 am

It's not really urgent... but it is extremely useful and will improve IMSLP greatly. Big difference.

If IMSLP were to buy and distribute among base group, after completion IMSLP could on-sell the collection to regain some money if necessary.

But I know we are all getting far to carried away. What you are talking about would come quite late in the 'planning' process. To be honest I am interested in getting this going (conditions apply), but we cannot jump the gun as much.

Post by **kcleung** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:22 am

We don't necessary have to *buy* the copy. As one of the previous users mentioned, contributors who *have acceess* to one (maybe from uni library etc) can strip logos without IMSLP owning a copy. Although it would be nice if IMSLP have a copy on its own to speed things up, but this is *not necessary* for the subproject to happen.

So when we plan for this subproject, we *shouldn't* wait until the decision to buy a copy. In fact buying a copy of OM maybe not too relevant to planning this subproject after all and we shouldn't be sidetracked by this issue

When you say "onsell" do you mean making a set of DVD collections and charge the DVDs as a service fee, while the stuff is still available online as before? This is okay to me and in fact I promote this model.

However if you mean that the orchestra parts only *exclusively* appear in our DVD and we charge a lot of money like what OM did, then I would oppose this fee-collection idea.

Post by **Yagan Kiely** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:00 am

We don't necessary have to *buy* the copy. As one of the previous users mentioned, contributors who *have acceess* to one (maybe from uni library etc) can strip logos without IMSLP owning a copy. Although it would be nice if IMSLP have a copy on its own to speed things up, but this is *not necessary* for the subproject to happen

The likeliness of enough people having access to them from uni is very slim. I'd actually flip that; the ones at uni quicken the project up.

When you say "onsell" do you mean making a set of DVD collections and charge the DVDs as a service fee, while the stuff is still available online as before? This is okay to me and in fact I promote this model.

I meant that we would sell the original collection as there would be no need for it anymore.

Post by **kcleung** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:39 am

Oh that't great. now I know what you mean.

I'm now going to tell you another piece of good news:

Actually we *don't* have to buy the 10 volumes at once. We can buy and work on one of the volumes (which contains all instruments in the works included) at one time and when we finish a volume,. we move on to the next. Each volume only costs approximately USD 250. After we finish with each volume, we can *onsell* it and move on to the next volume. This would make the capital outlay *much* smaller. So are you much happier now?

I really hope if we do it this way, then we can get the planning started quickly, as financial burden is now much smaller (1/10 of USD2500) and should not hinder our progress.

Website · Post by **pml** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:32 pm

I'm fairly sure the Hanson-Dyer Music Library at the University of Melbourne has purchased a set of the OM discs; the question is merely one of whether they are readily accessible or not. I get on very well with the library staff, so I'll see if I can borrow them or just use them "in house", and copy to a portable hard drive or a laptop.

Regards, Philip

Post by **kcleung** » Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:33 am

Thanks a lot! I've had a look at the uni melbourne catalogue. They have the entire set of Volume 1 CDs.

I also happen to know that Victoria University of Welllington, New Zealand has the entire set from vol 1 - 7. So anyone having access to this uni is also in a good position to contribute.

As part of the planning process, should the central committee of the OM sub-project also draw up a list of libraries which stocks OM and which volumes they stock etc? This would enable potential contributors to locate sources and decide whether they can contribute.