Organizing the whole list of Schubert Lieder...

[reinhold]

Hi all,
I have scanned the whole first volume of Schubert Lieder (Edition Peters, 20c; Ed. Max Friedlaender) for deep voice (transposed a third down; currently only the original version for high voice is available).

Now, my question is how to best upload this. The book has 270 pages and includes song cycles ("Die schöne Müllerin", "Winterreise", "Schwanengesang") as well as 34 individual songs.

Where / How shall I upload this?
The whole book is 19MB in 300dpi b/w.

The other issue is the organization of the Schubert composer page. Currenly, many songs are listed individually, so that one has to scroll through several pages where songs are mixed with sonatas, masses etc. Furthermore, several titles in the list don't help in finding what you are looking for (e.g. "386 Lieder" is the page title for the edition "Gesänge für eine Singstimme mit Klavierbegleitung", Ed. by Friedlaender; I have never heard the title "386 Lieder" for this edition!)
The other issue is that while many songs have an official title, they might also be known (or at least searched for) under the initial lyrics. E.g. "Seligkeit" is also known as "Freuden sonder Zahl", which does not have an entry on the Schubert composer page.
Other songs, which are part of a cycle, cannot be found in the list at all (e.g. "Der Lindenbaum" / initial lyrics "Am Brunnen vor dem Tore" cannot be found in the list, since it's part of the "Winterreise"). So anyone looking for such songs will be lost, unless he knows Schubert's song cycles very well...
Another issue is the sorting with articles: Most songs starting with an article are sorted as if the article wasn't there (e.g. "Der Abend" is sorted as "Abend"), but some are sorted with their article (e.g. "Das Abendrot" is sorted under D as "Das...").

So, wouldn't it be better to create a separate page for Schubert Lieder, where only lieder are listed, both with the official title and with the initial lyrics (even songs that are part of a song cycle)?

This would make it much easier to look for certain songs by Schubert, and also make it easier to look for other works by Schubert, since his works list would be not cluttered with hundreds of songs any more...

Cheers,
Reinhold

[vinteuil]

Ironicaally, I blieve that this volum is already on IMSLp.
If not, just split into each song (or cycle) and add to the existing page, as Aldona has already scanned all of the Schubert Lieder from a different edition

[vinteuil]

Oh, and check out the intersections on his category or Franz Peter Schubert - Complete Works Editions/Band XX

[reinhold]

Ironically, I believe that this volume is already on IMSLP.

No, it's not - at least I didn't find it. The "386 Lieder" is the same edition, but for high voice (Edition Peters 20a). I have scanned the edition for low voice (Edition Peters 20c; transposed a third down), which is not yet on IMSLP.
AFAICS, all Schubert songs so far were available only in the original key (for high voice), which is not very helpful for basses like me

Cheers,
Reinhold

[pml]

Hi Reinhold,

the normal convention adopted for all composers has been to split collections up into component works, usually as defined by the works catalogue (in the case of Schubert, Otto Erich Deutsch's: so although the book has 270 pages, it consists of 37 works (3 song cycles and 34 individual songs).

Thus, normally the file would be broken into its separate pieces and posted to the 37 different works pages. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to upload the 19MB file once, and merely cite it on 37 different pages (except that it might break some of the website's programming). I wasn't privy to the discussions that led to this means of separating files out, so someone else will have to explain why this method was adopted. (It works quite well for other composers who didn't write over 600 songs!)

Where is the page referring to Friedländer's edition as "386 Lieder"? Do you actually mean the title on the score as you have scanned it? I found the edition properly referred to by its title at:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Edition_Peters
and
http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Editions
which go here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Ges%C3%A4nge_f%C3 ... begleitung

Lastly you mention some good points regarding searching for individual songs. The titles of songs in the song cycles should be mentioned on the complete list pages (the Deutsch catalogue page cited above, and also volume 20 of the complete works).

As for the incipits of the songs: perhaps you would like to assist in collating the first lines? As there are 603 according to the complete works page, any contribution you could make would be welcome. I'll make a start on that page by adding the individual songs in the song cycles to the Deutsch catalogue. I suggest the best place for song incipits is this page:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Franz_Peter_Schub ... on/Band_XX

assuming it includes every known song by Schubert.

Regards, Philip

[Lyle Neff]

I'm not sure how the indexing of pages for compositions works on IMSLP, but I'm assuming that if you include a list of the contents of a song cycle or song set on the work page itself, those words can be searched.

For example, search "Спи, мой друг молодой" and it comes up with Cui's Op. 3, which I added just yesterday.

So, presumably you could add a "common" title or some other access as a search term for a work that needs to be formally listed under some other heading.

[aldona]

AFAICS, all Schubert songs so far were available only in the original key (for high voice), which is not very helpful for basses like me

Hello Reinhold, and welcome to the forum!

It is not really the case that the original keys of all of Schubert's songs were for high voice...it varied a lot, depending on the subject matter of the song and the person he wrote it for.

While his friends used to complain that many of the earlier songs were written for "damnably high tenor", in fact he wrote a lot of songs specifically for his friend Michael Vogl, who was a baritone.

There are a few songs which are suitable for bass voice in their original key. You could try:

- Am Bach im Frühling (D.361)
- Auf der Donau (D.553)
- Freiwilliges Versinken (D.700)
- Greisengesang (D.778)
- Grenzen der Menschheit (D.716)
- Der Kampf (D.594)
- Prometheus (D.674)
- Der Schatzgräber (D.256)
- Der Schiffer (D.536)
- Der Tod und das Mädchen (D.531)
- Der Wanderer (D.493)
- Der zürnende Barde (D.785)
...and the "3 Gesänge für Bass-Stimme", D.902 (my favourite is No.1, "L'incanto degli occhi").

The question of correct classification of work pages for all of the songs, and correct titles, is something that will probably continue to be controversial and there will be many different possible views.

Since each song is a separate work in its own right (with the exception of the three song-cycles), I have tried (as much as possible) to follow the principle of "one Deutsch number = one work page". For the correct (or most widely used) title, I have consulted the Gesamtausgabe, the Deutch catalogue listing, and the index to the Hyperion complete Schubert song collection, and tried to get a consensus. I would certainly be happy to be corrected, as I am aware that a song might be more popular under a different name in different parts of the world.

It would be useful to have an index of first lines, to help in finding the songs which are sometimes known by another title.

The "386 Lieder" were already there before I started uploading individual songs, so I just left this work as it was (put in "too hard" basket).

And I agree about the sorting discrepancy between "der" and "die" vs. "das". I'm not a programmer or a native German speaker so I'm not even going to attempt to go there.

Good to see a bass singer! My dad and my husband both sing bass. Our church choir is desperately looking for more bass singers - although I would guess that you are much too far away to be able to come to rehearsals.

Aldona

[reinhold]

The "386 Lieder" were already there before I started uploading individual songs, so I just left this work as it was (put in "too hard" basket).

It's the Edition Peters edition of Schubert songs and is used a lot here in Vienna at the music university and the conservatory. I think it deserves its own page, similar to Breitkopf's Gesamtausgabe, even though it does not strictly cover all songs.
There is already the page (which should be renamed to contain the name Schubert!)
http://imslp.org/wiki/Gesänge_für_eine_ ... begleitung
covering this edition, but it is lacking a lot there. Ideally, it should contain information similar to http://imslp.org/wiki/Franz_Peter_Schub ... ks_Edition

And I agree about the sorting discrepancy between "der" and "die" vs. "das". I'm not a programmer or a native German speaker so I'm not even going to attempt to go there.

I am a native speaker, so I might have a better understanding. From what I can see, the male and female definite articles (der and die, meaning "the") are ignored when sorting, but the neuter article (das, also meaning "the", but used for things where you would use "it") is not ignored but sorted verbatim. It should definitely be ignored, too, but "dass" should not be ignored, because that's a different word, meaning "(so) that" or simply "that".
About "dem", I suppose it should be ignored to, since that's also just the article, declined to dative.
Similarly, the indefinite article "ein"/"eine" (meaning "a" for male & neuter and for female) should also be ignored when sorting.

Reinhold

[launcelyn]

Is there any source that will tell me the actual vocal range of the Schubert songs, either listed at original pitch or at the pitch of the 20c edition Peters which is evidently transposed down a third (is that for all of them regardless of original key?)