Unhosted composers

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:12 am

I respect the copyright laws... but that doesn't mean I'll wait around 17 more years to sight study Shostakovich's Leningrad. Actually, where I come from, sheet music is not abundant and also, it think for me, buying a symphonic score would be a waste. My philosophy is, as long as it's for personal study, it should be free.

I venture to say that I found the complete score from a friend and am downloading it now. But for the fear of the link being reported or I being banned from here, I'd post it.

But if there're no hassles to follow, just mention it and I'll post the link here.

Post by **Leonard Vertighel** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:15 am

pml wrote:Empty pages (providing that the composer is permissible to be hosted) should be a goad for contributors to fill the gap, not a cause for angst or fear of horror vacui.

1,500 composer pages of which 15 are empty are indeed a non-issue. But 15,000 composer pages of which 13,500 are empty would make the Category:Composers useless for finding downloadable scores. I'm still convinced that if we want to allow empty composers pages in unlimited quantity, then we definitely need a mechanism to list only those that actually contain something. Everything else would be a usability nightmare.

You could try to solve this with categories as well (as mentioned earlier for non-PD composers), but I'm afraid it would end up in chaos with people forgetting to switch categories when scores are added to a previously empty category. An automated solution would probably be needed. Ideas?

pml wrote:One thing preventing the idea at present is that the fte template for composer pages doesn't work on pages that aren't in the Category namespace. That shouldn't prevent a derivative template being designed, which has some elements in common with the hosted composer template, while others are different (no link to "add a work to this page"). Hence my first post upthread.

Actually it might make sense to (ab)use the Category namespace for the proposed non-PD composer pages. I seem to understand that one of the goals is to prevent the creation of (PD-type) composer pages for non-PD composers. If the page exists in the same namespace, then attempts at creating it again would automatically fail.

Website · Post by **pml** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:18 pm

Hi Leonard,

Somehow I doubt there would be a rush to instantly add 15,000 composers, which sounds rather hyperbolic. I might be wrong about that of course... ;-)

Besides many prolific composers are presently represented by very few of their works as a proportion of their total œuvre, and yet that is no reason to give up in frustration. Even a single score by a composer is better than nothing, and even if 15,000 composers were to be added, I think it would be possible to find scores for most of them in the same amount of time.

Regards, PML

Post by **Leonard Vertighel** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:43 pm

pml wrote:Somehow I doubt there would be a rush to instantly add 15,000 composers, which sounds rather hyperbolic.

Would you have predicted in 2001 that Wikipedia would reach 1,000,000 articles within little more than half a decade? Maybe all new composer pages will be filled within a few days after they are created. Maybe we will be flooded with thousands of empty pages that remain so for the next decade. I believe that we need a system that works for both cases.

Post by **daphnis** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:17 pm

Agreed. There needs to be a mechanism in place to handle mass inflation. Distinguishing between null pages (subdivision between those eligible for participation here, and those still under copyright) and those containing at least one work would be helpful. Surely there can even be a script written to automatically adjust templates of pages once they become "active".

@Apollo:

My philosophy is, as long as it's for personal study, it should be free.

While there may be something to that, your personal philosophy is hardly in agreement with copyright law.

think for me, buying a symphonic score would be a waste

!!!

I venture to say that I found the complete score from a friend and am downloading it now. But for the fear of the link being reported or I being banned from here, I'd post it.

Then let your fears be your conscience. Do not attempt to post such a link here.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:31 pm

"personal philosophy is hardly in agreement with copyright law."

It seems to me Daphnis here goes shoulder to shoulder with the IRS monsters that attacked this site.

To your interjections in triplicate I say that I'd have nothing to perform out of an orchestral score lest I decide to transcribe it and play. I may have the ability, but not the time. Thus I say I'd have no use in buying a complete score to a symphony just to study it.

I my intentions of sharing what I found was not directed at any kind of felony, but were of friendly interests. I'm sure there are a lot of other people looking for it. You did not have single out your intolerance.

My last sentence in the previous post bears a figure of speech. I do not fear any corporate shackles... If sheet music is forbidden I'll simply listen and copy... as Mozart did.

Lyle Neff · Post by **Lyle Neff** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:54 pm

Mozart lived in a different time, under different rules.

Post by **daphnis** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:00 pm

Without taking this thread any more off topic, which I admit is my fault to begin with, let me just say that, although you may be aware, many are not to the fact that we are not a sheet music Napster here; just because a work may seem to have been written a long time ago does not make it fair game to include. We strive to be consistent and conscientious about copyright law on our site a forum, even if that comes at a personal grievance or two. We're always glad to refer people to places where they can legally obtain a copy.

Website · Post by **vinteuil** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:04 pm

@Apollo

It seems to me Daphnis here goes shoulder to shoulder with the IRS monsters that attacked this site.

IRS? The thing about copyright is that it's not the government that enforces it, usually. Universal Edition has stated its apologies on a different forum, and I think that we need to respect them instead of just attacking. I hope that we can all stop just pointing fingers.

Oh, and on the topic of unhosted composers, I agree with the idea of separate categories. Perhaps: Category:Composers, Category:Composers/Unhosted (if that's possible), and Category:Composers/Hosted?[

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:25 pm

Neff :

Mozart did copy out a whole piece which was securely kept in the vaults of the Archbishop. The Archbishop had forbidden all composers from having that music and Mozart did just that... it's a very faint analogy but it IS close to what copyright issues levy on free file sharing.
Daphnis :
I understand the Petrucci Library's concerns perfectly and realize how careful it has to be not to get blocked again in the future.

perlnerd :
Thanks for clearing that up for me. But could you tell me why there are some Liszt works still blocked even though it says public domain and we both know it's been more than 100 years since Franz died ? Like for example the Siegesmarsch and the Mazurka Brillante.

Website · Post by **vinteuil** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:31 pm

We have no idea of the edition in some of those cases. The editor, who could have done fingerings, and in some cases changed the music, could have died less than 50 years ago. We just don't know.
And that Allegri Miserere is one of the most famous Mozart parables. However, modern law is very different, because it's so much easier to copy now. Dickens, Dostoevsky and others had to publish serially in magazines, because they could only retain their property for any amount of time by doing as such. Walsh was a famous example of a publisher who copied without permission. The law has changed, mostly because of the photocopier, the cassette deck, the typewriter, and the internet.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:16 pm

Understood. So it will be available provided it's an old an original version. Wouldn't it be prudent to supply alternatives as well ? I have a few of the hyperion collection by Leslie Howard and would like to have all of what's in there as sheet music too.

Another example might be the Horowitz trancriptions of the Liszt Rakoczi Marsch and the Danse-Macabre (St-Saens)... I'm guessing we have nothing of Horowitz here because it's only been 2009 - 1989 = 20 yrs.

Website · Post by **vinteuil** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:30 pm

@Apollo

Wouldn't it be prudent to supply alternatives as well ?

Sometimes we just don't have them. We're not omnipotent.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:39 pm

I realized why they are blocked. It says it is pending copyright review. What might that mean ?

Website · Post by **vinteuil** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:47 pm

Someone needs to come in, take a look (something I can't do, for one), and try to figure out the publisher, etc. Then they will decide if it's public domain or not.