Overrated, Overused, Overdone, underrated etc.

[Yagan Kiely]

Not all forums are the same. They range from the likes of the BBC forums to the likes of 4chan, and they are managed in entirely different ways. Besides, if we were here to do what everybody does, then we should be listening to Britney Spears, as was recently suggested by one of our beloved spammers.

That is clearly not a valid argument. Spears has nothing to do with forum management at all, and 4chan doesn't manage their forums at all (more or less). All other forums use the same standard set of rules with slight changes. Content of the forums have nothing to do with how they are managed, computer gaming forums, classical music forums and various other topics all use this same standard sets of rules.

Having all these threads on the same (or extremely similar) topics is not bad on it's own, but it dwarfs other topics and hinders communication - the main purpose of forums.

If someone wants to make a new forum for these types of discussions tonight go ahead, I'll be making one tomorrow if no one else does (I don't have time tonight).

[SeanMartin]

Yagan, if I may interject a note?

IMHO, what happened was that Allegro was setting up discussion threads on things that interested him -- and no one else was. Frankly, I dont think it merits a separate forum, and I doubt it hinders communication and discussion. Folks come here to talk about music and what interests them, and Allegro wanted to spur that discussion. Granted, maybe a bit much too fast, but as with any discussion forum, eventually topics sort themselves out.

Just for comparison, right now one of the software packages I use for my 3D work has gone through a major upgrade. Because it's a major upgrade, the various fora dedicated to this software are now littered with literally hundreds of "why cant I get it to do this?" or "why isnt this working?" or 'OH GOD WHY DID THEY EVEN BOTHER WITH THIS &^*%^$ UPGRADE?" Many of the threads deal with exactly the same issues, but folks think it's easier, I suppose, to create all these new threads about exactly the same problem/issue/technical screwup as the dozen or so right below them.

Point is, eventually the newsness wears off, and we can return to sane discussions, like why the various stores attendant to these fora charge so much for garbage products or how this particular render of Standard Pretty Girl in Nondescript Setting should be marvelled over for page upon page of inane comments. It's just how discussion forums work out sometimes.

So my earnest suggestion? Just let it go. It's not as bad a problem as you might think, honest. There are so relatively few discussion threads that it's easy to scan past them and onto the ones that appeal to me. And I'm sure most, if not all, of the membership here would agree.

Just my 0.02.

[allegroamabile]

what happened was that Allegro was setting up discussion threads on things that interested him -- and no one else was.

Although some of my contributions were not as popular as others, they all have gotten responces. Besides, I'm the creator of the epic thread on Mahler.

Regards

[SeanMartin]

Now, now, dont be sad. Again, you were putting things out there for discussion, and sometimes sheer thread drift took the topic to interesting places not anticipated by the subject as originally presented. I didnt mean to suggest that no one responded: people did. What I meant -- and probably didnt say -- is that you were posting topics. Others were not posting topics. It's that simple, really.

[Sieglinde]

Overused (mostly in movies and advertising):

- Bach's Toccata and Fugue d minor (when you hear ominous organ music, it's 90% this one)
- Strauss' Zarathustra (it's great in Space Odyssey, but it's used in way too many parodies)
- Beethoven's Für Elise (electronic ringbells - thank to that, now I'm sick when I hear it) and Symphony V beginning (mostly in parodies and very old horrors)
- La donna e mobile (well... Verdi knew it will happen)
- Ride of the Valkyries ("Kill the Wabbit" - no comment)
- "O fortuna" from Carmina burana
- La ci darem la mano
- Nessun dorma - it even has a metal version. Not as bad as it sounds.
- Strauss Walzers
- Brindisi from Traviata

[sbeckmesser]

To my mind, Strauss-family Waltzes, which have an unfailing ability to cheer me up, are never overused. They are, in fact, underprogrammed in symphony concerts, and are usually exiled to Pops and New Years events. Back in the day (the early 1900s, before the invention of Pops and Proms-type events) they were standard fare of major orchestra concerts, as they deserve to be.

The only Strauss waltz that can possibly be called overused is the Blue Danube and only because of its iconic nature in Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey. But that leaves the other great ones (Emperor, Vienna Woods, Wiener Blut, Morgenblatter, etc.) essentially untouched by overexposure, thank goodness.

I find the degradation of the opening of Carmina Burana into a musical cliche a thoroughly appropriate fate for what is undoubtedly the most popular piece to have been written in the Third Reich. Talk about "banality of evil!"

--Sixtus

[Sieglinde]

I knew a box fighter who used "O fortuna" when coming into the ring. Actually, it was there I heard it first. Then I had to get the cd.

[Lyle Neff]

[...]The only Strauss waltz that can possibly be called overused is the Blue Danube [...]

Except when Victor Borge would play it upside-down.

[JohnEB]

Someone mentioned that it was possible for people to think that Rachmaninoff's concertos are overrated?

I think that Rachmaninov's concerti (specifically 2 and 3)are some of the greatest pieces of music ever created. I pay less attention to most symphonies and orchestral works so I'll just say that they are the greatest piano concertos ever written.

[andrewg]

There is a good group of people who think that Mozart is "overrated.

[Lyle Neff]

There is a good group of people who think that Mozart is "overrated.

At any rate, he's definitely overperformed.

[sbeckmesser]

At any rate, he's definitely overperformed.

;
I'd agree with this sentiment with a slight revision: "he's definitely overperformed poorly." I find most live Mozart performances to be far too middle-of-the-road post-Romantic in style. For example, the piano concerti: middle movements are often dragged out with far too slow tempi that could not be sustained on a fortepiano of Mozart's time (the sound decays too fast), there's a great fear among soloists to improvise ornamentation on melodic lines that clearly call for some (also due to the characteristics of the fortepiano), and the "new" cadenzas for those works that need them are almost uniformly too long and unstylish (this goes for the violin concerti too). My complaint about ornamentation extends to operatic arias, where you have the additional problem of singers being terrified of turning repeated notes into appogiaturas Listen to the Mackerras recordings of the Mozart operas on Telarc to see how well this works when consistently applied.

On the other hand in many genres, Mozart's works stand so far above those of his contemporaries that if you want something good from this period, you're going to have to perform Mozart (or Haydn). There's precious little else that rises to their level of musical interest that merits rehearsal and performance time and my concert-going dollar.

--Sixtus

PS: Anybody else notice that since all the Overrated, Overdone etc. threads were estopped that interest in the Music Related forum has plummeted? We're mostly down to a very few regular contributors, unfortunately. At least when those threads were active, everybody seemed willing to participate, regardless of musical background. I knew this would happen.

[pianogirl23]

agreed...
and yagan kiely...rachmaninoff piano concertos are so not overrated
the reason they're played a lot is because the melodies are brilliant
the only reason people might think the piano concertos are overrated
are b/c they might be overused
(i mean, seriously, name a virtuosic concert pianist who doesn't have at least one piano concerto of his in their repertoire?)
but hey...you want overused or overrated?
try liszt's libestraum in a flat or consolation no 3
those are totally overrated
but rachmaninoff??? never!!!

[vinteuil]

Hmmm....Liszt is sticky.
That the composer of the Grand Galop Chromatique could have written the b minor sonata...

The Rachmaninoff melodies are good. I would say, however, that Schumann and Schubert are the best melodists.
The concerti can certainly be overrated if they are played only for that reason...although that does not proclude their being good (The Paganini Rhapsody is brilliant, but the others, I don't know)

[pianogirl23]

yeah...
I love the rhapsody on a theme of paganini
but i also think that the 2nd piano concerto from rachmaninoff (the most overused...i know)
is especially brilliant and beautiful
it sends shivers up and down my spine (but only with evgeny kissin playing it)
to keep it from being overused i only listen/play it about once in a few months
oh and schumann definitely understands melody especially with his kinderscenen
and so does schubert with his impromptus
but schumann's my favorite from the two